From bob.l.lewis at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 08:28:13 2009 From: bob.l.lewis at gmail.com (Robert Lewis) Date: Sun Mar 1 07:54:03 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: KDE 4.2 Desktop and Taskbar In-Reply-To: <49AA1E31.9070402@mscis.org> References: <49AA1E31.9070402@mscis.org> Message-ID: <86d2b63e0903010728u6e09d449wb34835712d0586f6@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Brandon Stout wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Now I'm going to add to the complaints about KDE 4.x. > > First, in KDE 3 I like to make the taskbar a little wider because once > you get to a certain width (around 40 px?), the application buttons > double up, so you can have them stacked two high. In KDE 4.x the > buttons just gets bigger. I prefer the old behavior far more, but I > don't see a way to make it work that way. At least the system tray > doubles up like I expect it to. I'm guessing there's no way to make the > taskbar behave the way KDE 3's did? > > Second, in every desktop for every other desktop environment out there, > you can save stuff to your desktop, and it shows up on the desktop. > That's the whole point of saving something to the desktop. > Unfortunately, KDE 4 doesn't automatically put new files on the desktop > when you save them there, thus nullifying the whole point of saving > things there. Is there a way to make the desktop behave like everyone > in the world, except the KDE developers, expect it to behave? > > Other than that, I'd give high praise to the KDE devs for a great new > desktop. I honestly think it's come along quite nicely, though it > should have been in beta much longer. > > ~wake Thomas, DexterTheDragon, and other KDE fans. > > Brandon > Brandon, On the second item, I have been able to delete the containment box with the items I want to launch from the desktop. At that point I could right click on the desktop and get the "create new" item I was looking for. When one has the default "Desktop Folder" view up then you can only do this within that frame. I can't be sure any longer what did but my best guess is that I deleted the entire Desktop Folder and then got that behavior back. Optionally you can right click on the desktop and select "Appearance Settings". Then under Type: pull down select "Folder View" and then "apply". The "create new" will be available on the desktop at that point. I can tell you that once I had it set up the way I wanted I started getting prompted to enter my Password after some internal that I couldn't control. I could not figure out with everyones help here how to fix that so i simply deleted .kde4 and restart my desktop. Now I don't get the prompt to login every few min. I agree with your thoughts. It is working much better than it did but we need to b/r to the kde team what we are seeing so they can make it better. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090301/cefc0083/attachment.html From beebe at math.utah.edu Mon Mar 2 10:47:00 2009 From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe) Date: Mon Mar 2 10:13:08 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: [sllug-members] US patent law decision Message-ID: This story may be of interest to those of you concerned about the proliferation of patents that affect free software development: Steven J. Frank, The Death of the Business-Method Patents, IEEE Spectrum, Mar. 2009, pp. 32 - 35. http://spectrum.ieee.org/mar09/7909 http://spectrum.ieee.org/print/7909 The second URL gets the article in one piece, instead of three. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bms at mscis.org Mon Mar 2 21:26:24 2009 From: bms at mscis.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Mon Mar 2 20:53:21 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: KDE 4.2 Desktop and Taskbar In-Reply-To: <86d2b63e0903010728u6e09d449wb34835712d0586f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <49AA1E31.9070402@mscis.org> <86d2b63e0903010728u6e09d449wb34835712d0586f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49ACB170.9000107@mscis.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Robert Lewis wrote: > Brandon, > > On the second item, I have been able to delete the containment box > with the items I want to launch from the desktop. At that point I > could right click on the desktop and get the "create new" item I was > looking for. When one has the default "Desktop Folder" view up then > you can only do this within that frame. I can't be sure any longer > what did but my best guess is that I deleted the entire Desktop Folder > and then got that behavior back. Optionally you can right click on > the desktop and select "Appearance Settings". Then under Type: pull > down select "Folder View" and then "apply". The "create new" will be > available on the desktop at that point. I can tell you that once I > had it set up the way I wanted I started getting prompted to enter my > Password after some internal that I couldn't control. I could not > figure out with everyones help here how to fix that so i simply > deleted .kde4 and restart my desktop. Now I don't get the prompt to > login every few min. I agree with your thoughts. It is working much > better than it did but we need to b/r to the kde team what we are > seeing so they can make it better. > > Bob Thank you Bob. I tried right click on the desktop, then 'Desktop Settings'. I applied 'Folder View' and got a normal Desktop, then I got a fatal error with the plasma desktop, and the folder view goes away and up returns the plasma desktop. Perhaps you or another KDE guru will know how to handle plasma desktop fatal errors like that. Brandon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmssXAACgkQx0pgn74qrcI6fQCfe9wVgRRbjv9/ZA9feUCGWr1E WfUAoImYTjw/h50n3zTnSed9WzfHUdo2 =Jtnu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bob.l.lewis at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 23:07:13 2009 From: bob.l.lewis at gmail.com (Robert Lewis) Date: Mon Mar 2 22:32:56 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: KDE 4.2 Desktop and Taskbar In-Reply-To: <49ACB170.9000107@mscis.org> References: <49AA1E31.9070402@mscis.org> <86d2b63e0903010728u6e09d449wb34835712d0586f6@mail.gmail.com> <49ACB170.9000107@mscis.org> Message-ID: <86d2b63e0903022207i45313350o415fd8735e69f754@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Brandon Stout wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Robert Lewis wrote: > > > Brandon, > > > > On the second item, I have been able to delete the containment box > > with the items I want to launch from the desktop. At that point I > > could right click on the desktop and get the "create new" item I was > > looking for. When one has the default "Desktop Folder" view up then > > you can only do this within that frame. I can't be sure any longer > > what did but my best guess is that I deleted the entire Desktop Folder > > and then got that behavior back. Optionally you can right click on > > the desktop and select "Appearance Settings". Then under Type: pull > > down select "Folder View" and then "apply". The "create new" will be > > available on the desktop at that point. I can tell you that once I > > had it set up the way I wanted I started getting prompted to enter my > > Password after some internal that I couldn't control. I could not > > figure out with everyones help here how to fix that so i simply > > deleted .kde4 and restart my desktop. Now I don't get the prompt to > > login every few min. I agree with your thoughts. It is working much > > better than it did but we need to b/r to the kde team what we are > > seeing so they can make it better. > > > > Bob > > Thank you Bob. I tried right click on the desktop, then 'Desktop > Settings'. I applied 'Folder View' and got a normal Desktop, then I got > a fatal error with the plasma desktop, and the folder view goes away and > up returns the plasma desktop. Perhaps you or another KDE guru will > know how to handle plasma desktop fatal errors like that. > > Brandon > I don't have any thoughts on this other than we all have to help the KDE folks by bug reporting so they can make it better. This is one of the costs of using early offerings as I see it. When I messed up my kde4 session I renamed .kde4 and restarted the desktop which took me back to the installation defaults. Cheers, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090302/16f44082/attachment.htm From bms at mscis.org Tue Mar 3 13:05:09 2009 From: bms at mscis.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Tue Mar 3 12:32:05 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: backup crontab script Message-ID: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 A server I'm working on has a script called backup_files_locally.sh that runs daily at 20:00. Here's the script: sudo rsync -aruvz --delete --delete-after --delete-excluded - --files-from=/usr/local/var/etc/files_to_backup - --exclude-from=/usr/local/var/etc/files_to_not_backup / /usr/local/var/backups/files/$((`date +"%V"` % 3))/ I see two problems: First, I don't think it needs 'sudo' at the beginning since it's in root's crontab. It was owned by another user, but suid isn't set, and I chowned it to root anyway. Second, it's taking more than 24 hours to run for the past couple of days. I found some very large tar files that probably don't need to be backed up. I have three questions: 1. Is there a reason to ever do sudo for a crontab run as root? 2. Is there a problem with putting this entry in the /user/local/var/etc/files_to_not_backup file: *.tar In other words, I don't see any reason to backup any tar files since they are all either backups of existing data themselves, or they are originals that were extracted and the extracted data is what needs backing up. We could take this a bit further... 3. What if I added a line for *.gz, *.tgz, *.bz, and other typical compressed backups so none of them get backed up? If I had a web page that read .gz files, like a web stats page that reads apache backups, I can see this one being a problem, so what would you do instead? Manually specify every single recursive /path/to/*.{bz,gz,tgz} ? Thanks in advance, Brandon Stout Stout Hosting LLC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmtjXUACgkQx0pgn74qrcLjUwCeN0g3QFXFeCfWdC+n9hu/8etN 7S8An0ppAKZDJAyHcD7WBB0aFdNk7f36 =MOjS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From aaron.toponce at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 13:18:06 2009 From: aaron.toponce at gmail.com (Aaron Toponce) Date: Tue Mar 3 12:43:47 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: [sllug-members] US patent law decision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090303201806.GD26274@sol.pthree.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2009 at 10:47:00AM -0700, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > This story may be of interest to those of you concerned about > the proliferation of patents that affect free software development: > > Steven J. Frank, > The Death of the Business-Method Patents, > IEEE Spectrum, Mar. 2009, pp. 32 - 35. > http://spectrum.ieee.org/mar09/7909 > http://spectrum.ieee.org/print/7909 > > The second URL gets the article in one piece, instead of three. The whole idea about spreading news articles over several web pages so you can increase your ad presence drives me further to using ad blocking software. I want to read your new piece, not click on your ads. The more ads you have littering your page, the less likely I am to visit again. -- _ Aaron Toponce ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign www.aarontoponce.org X www.asciiribbon.org / \ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 489 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090303/7a3e9ed2/attachment.pgp From kwalker at kobran.org Tue Mar 3 13:32:07 2009 From: kwalker at kobran.org (Knight Walker) Date: Tue Mar 3 12:57:46 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: backup crontab script In-Reply-To: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> References: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> Message-ID: <1236112327.3465.10.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> On Tue, 2009-03-03 at 13:05 -0700, Brandon Stout wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > A server I'm working on has a script called backup_files_locally.sh that > runs daily at 20:00. Here's the script: > > sudo rsync -aruvz --delete --delete-after --delete-excluded > - --files-from=/usr/local/var/etc/files_to_backup > - --exclude-from=/usr/local/var/etc/files_to_not_backup / > /usr/local/var/backups/files/$((`date +"%V"` % 3))/ > > I see two problems: First, I don't think it needs 'sudo' at the > beginning since it's in root's crontab. It was owned by another user, > but suid isn't set, and I chowned it to root anyway. Second, it's taking > more than 24 hours to run for the past couple of days. I found some > very large tar files that probably don't need to be backed up. I have > three questions: > > 1. Is there a reason to ever do sudo for a crontab run as root? Yes, but not for the use you describe above. And not really if you're root already. I've used sudo to switch to a different non-priv account, but that's not starting from root. > 2. Is there a problem with putting this entry in the > /user/local/var/etc/files_to_not_backup file: > > *.tar > > In other words, I don't see any reason to backup any tar files since > they are all either backups of existing data themselves, or they are > originals that were extracted and the extracted data is what needs > backing up. We could take this a bit further... That's entirely up to you. What I generally do in a situation like this is move the offending tarballs to another system that has its own backup schedule (Generally, one that makes a full backup when tapes are sent off-site) or if I'm sure the file they contain are in use elsewhere, and if space is at a premium, I delete them. It's a judgment call. > 3. What if I added a line for *.gz, *.tgz, *.bz, and other typical > compressed backups so none of them get backed up? If I had a web page > that read .gz files, like a web stats page that reads apache backups, I > can see this one being a problem, so what would you do instead? > Manually specify every single recursive /path/to/*.{bz,gz,tgz} ? Like I said, for large quantities of data that don't change often (ever) I generally move them to somewhere that gets backed up only when necessary. I don't see a reason to pollute the backups with other backups unless it's necessary. -KW From mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com Tue Mar 3 14:12:34 2009 From: mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com (Matt Warnock) Date: Tue Mar 3 13:38:23 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: [sllug-members] US patent law decision In-Reply-To: <20090303201806.GD26274@sol.pthree.org> References: <20090303201806.GD26274@sol.pthree.org> Message-ID: <49AD9D42.1060503@ridgecrestherbals.com> Couldn't agree more, the format most publications use is annoying, both for narrow margins, extra ads, disrupted thought process, etc, but my solution is more less dramatic-- I usually just hit the "print" button on the page, and get a page formatted for my screen and a lot fewer ads. Of course, not all of them have the print button... but this one did. Aaron Toponce wrote: > The whole idea about spreading news articles over several web pages so > you can increase your ad presence drives me further to using ad blocking > software. I want to read your new piece, not click on your ads. The more > ads you have littering your page, the less likely I am to visit again. -- Matt Warnock, President RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. From allen.schultz at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 15:27:06 2009 From: allen.schultz at gmail.com (Allen Schultz) Date: Tue Mar 3 14:52:41 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: [sllug-members] US patent law decision In-Reply-To: <49AD9D42.1060503@ridgecrestherbals.com> References: <20090303201806.GD26274@sol.pthree.org> <49AD9D42.1060503@ridgecrestherbals.com> Message-ID: <3f34f8420903031427p7c20d73fg3694d3a5c0c9a39b@mail.gmail.com> Then, might I suggest using your hosts file to filter. I use MVPS Host file and update it frequently. I'm sure you can make it work on Linux, even if you have multiple other hosts hard coded in your file. Allen From sllug at vpxp.com Tue Mar 3 16:54:02 2009 From: sllug at vpxp.com (Chris Brown) Date: Tue Mar 3 16:20:21 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: [sllug-members] US patent law decision In-Reply-To: <3f34f8420903031427p7c20d73fg3694d3a5c0c9a39b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090303201806.GD26274@sol.pthree.org> <49AD9D42.1060503@ridgecrestherbals.com> <3f34f8420903031427p7c20d73fg3694d3a5c0c9a39b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49ADC31A.40705@vpxp.com> True, but turning a page full of ads into a page that looks like swiss cheese doesn't fix a bad website design. CHris Allen Schultz wrote: > Then, might I suggest using your hosts file to filter. I use MVPS Host > file and update it frequently. I'm sure you can make it work on Linux, > even if you have multiple other hosts hard coded in your file. > > Allen > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From zspecialk at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 17:17:09 2009 From: zspecialk at gmail.com (Scott K) Date: Tue Mar 3 16:42:42 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: [sllug-members] US patent law decision In-Reply-To: <49ADC31A.40705@vpxp.com> References: <20090303201806.GD26274@sol.pthree.org> <49AD9D42.1060503@ridgecrestherbals.com> <3f34f8420903031427p7c20d73fg3694d3a5c0c9a39b@mail.gmail.com> <49ADC31A.40705@vpxp.com> Message-ID: <90cf3c3d0903031617r47878e76ydf6676abd0cda5eb@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Chris Brown wrote: > True, but turning a page full of ads into a page that looks like swiss > cheese doesn't fix a bad website design. > >> Then, might I suggest using your hosts file to filter. I use MVPS Host >> file and update it frequently. I'm sure you can make it work on Linux, >> even if you have multiple other hosts hard coded in your file. >> There is a balance between abusive ads and freeloading viewers. I agree that some sites overdo their ads, but hitting everything under the sun with adBlock costs information providers ad revenue, decreasing the amount of money they can spend on decent content. I use the blockSite Firefox add on to filter out the most annoying providers (currently *doubleclick* and *triblefusion*), and I allow the rest of them through. It doesn't cost me as much to leave them in place as it costs the content provider when I strip them out (I should probably blacklist some more of the slow and privacy invasive ad providers). As an IEEE member, I have a reasonable recourse to complain about the amount of ads on this site in particular, but any site should have feedback in place where you can tell them that they're poor design drowns out their content, and your are not liable to return. Scott From bmidgley at xmission.com Tue Mar 3 18:44:36 2009 From: bmidgley at xmission.com (Brad Midgley) Date: Tue Mar 3 18:09:56 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: user switching vs. dvd/cdrom In-Reply-To: <49A9A45D.6010109@xmission.com> References: <49A6C739.40507@xmission.com> <1235667271.3468.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49A9A45D.6010109@xmission.com> Message-ID: <49ADDD04.6000100@xmission.com> I filed a bug, the author read my ticket, fixed and and closed the bug. I'm still in shock. > Clint > >> I also think this is part of nautilus' options so opening a nautilus >> window, choosing Edit -> Preferences and choose the Media tab that >> way. > > this was it. Ideally nautilus needs to detect when it is running under a > user that is "switched out". I'll make a note in the gnome bugzilla and > for now I've disabled app launching in the media tab. > > Brad > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members From richard at esplins.org Tue Mar 3 14:13:25 2009 From: richard at esplins.org (Richard Esplin) Date: Tue Mar 3 20:00:26 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: backup crontab script In-Reply-To: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> References: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> Message-ID: <200903031413.25925.richard-lists@esplins.org> I prefer to err on the side of backing up too much data, then to discover during a restore that I missed something. If I'm annoyed by a large file or directory making it into my backup, I prefer to exclude it explicitly with as narrow a rule as possible. If I don't have a reason to take it out, I leave it in. Richard Esplin On Tuesday 03 March 2009 13:05:09 Brandon Stout wrote: > In other words, I don't see any reason to backup any tar files since > they are all either backups of existing data themselves, or they are > originals that were extracted and the extracted data is what needs > backing up. We could take this a bit further... > > 3. What if I added a line for *.gz, *.tgz, *.bz, and other typical > compressed backups so none of them get backed up? If I had a web page > that read .gz files, like a web stats page that reads apache backups, I > can see this one being a problem, so what would you do instead? > Manually specify every single recursive /path/to/*.{bz,gz,tgz} ? From sllug at fungusmovies.com Wed Mar 4 16:30:30 2009 From: sllug at fungusmovies.com (Lonnie Olson) Date: Wed Mar 4 16:53:45 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: backup crontab script In-Reply-To: <8bcade370903041524g3b00733bv6a6ea397623b2e37@mail.gmail.com> References: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> <8bcade370903041524g3b00733bv6a6ea397623b2e37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8bcade370903041530w2c63ae8fx4c20fec427ff9fef@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Lonnie Olson wrote: > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Brandon Stout wrote: >> A server I'm working on has a script called backup_files_locally.sh that >> runs daily at 20:00. ?Here's the script: >> >> sudo rsync -aruvz --delete --delete-after --delete-excluded >> - --files-from=/usr/local/var/etc/files_to_backup >> - --exclude-from=/usr/local/var/etc/files_to_not_backup / >> /usr/local/var/backups/files/$((`date +"%V"` % 3))/ Also, I see you using rsync and keeping date based archives. Let me introduce you to a wonderful little friend called rsnapshot (http://rsnapshot.org/) This tool is simply a frontend to rsync. "Using rsync and hard links, it is possible to keep multiple, full backups instantly available. The disk space required is just a little more than the space of one full backup, plus incrementals. " Since it hard links non-changed files from the previous backup, it saves disk space, but more than that, it saves time, gobs of time, tons of time. Your method doesn't take advantage of any of the rsync algorithms for copying only changes. rsnapshot makes great use of this, with also providing you multiple versions. --lonnie From sllug at fungusmovies.com Wed Mar 4 16:24:17 2009 From: sllug at fungusmovies.com (Lonnie Olson) Date: Wed Mar 4 17:23:41 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: backup crontab script In-Reply-To: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> References: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> Message-ID: <8bcade370903041524g3b00733bv6a6ea397623b2e37@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Brandon Stout wrote: > A server I'm working on has a script called backup_files_locally.sh that > runs daily at 20:00. ?Here's the script: > > sudo rsync -aruvz --delete --delete-after --delete-excluded > - --files-from=/usr/local/var/etc/files_to_backup > - --exclude-from=/usr/local/var/etc/files_to_not_backup / > /usr/local/var/backups/files/$((`date +"%V"` % 3))/ > > I see two problems: First, I don't think it needs 'sudo' at the > beginning since it's in root's crontab. ?It was owned by another user, > but suid isn't set, and I chowned it to root anyway. Second, it's taking > more than 24 hours to run for the past couple of days. ?I found some > very large tar files that probably don't need to be backed up. ?I have > three questions: > > 1. Is there a reason to ever do sudo for a crontab run as root? Only to run as a user other than root "sudo -u asterisk ..." > 2. Is there a problem with putting this entry in the > /user/local/var/etc/files_to_not_backup file: > > *.tar > > In other words, I don't see any reason to backup any tar files since > they are all either backups of existing data themselves, or they are > originals that were extracted and the extracted data is what needs > backing up. ?We could take this a bit further... Your problem may be you are doing a recursive backup. You are backing up the backups, unless you have (which you should) an exclusion for /usr/local/var/backups/files/ And excluding any group of files based on extension is just asking for trouble. You may think that they are all just backup files, but you won't always be right. It is way too risky. Your approach should be to back up *everything*, and add exclusions for the files/directories you are positive you don't need/want. Your exclusions should be very specific. From herlo1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 20:35:14 2009 From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage) Date: Wed Mar 4 20:00:49 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: SLLUG Daytime SIG March 11, 11:30-1 Message-ID: Hi all, Just wanted to send out a reminder about the March SLLUG (daytime SIG) meeting. The meeting will be held on March 11 from 11:30am-1pm at the Salt Lake Public Library. Kevin Benko will be giving an introduction to LVM. I'd like to thank Kevin for volunteering and am excited to see what he has to share. I'll be bringing some swag to give away. I have some cool computer bags and a copy of the latest openSUSE 11.1 boxed edition to give away. I've included the details about location again below. If you have questions, feel free to email me directly . ATTENTION: WE NEED PRESENTERS FOR APRIL & MAY This SIG will be more successful if everyone participates, even if you feel you don't know a lot, consider presenting. If you are interested in presenting, please let me know =================================================================== Salt Lake Public Library: 210 E 400 S, Salt Lake City, UT? - (801) 524-8200? Map: http://tinyurl.com/slcpubliclibrary Make sure to bring your sack lunch (or you can buy from the deli upstairs or burger king across the street). Parking for 1.5 hours is recommended and can be done on the East side of the library (at 300 East) at the meters. $0.25 will get you 15 minutes of parking. Traxx is also nearby and possibly more convenient. Conference room A on the lower level of the Salt Lake Library has been reserved. Head down the stairs, make a left turn. The conference room is directly under the foyer area (the area with all the shops on the 1st level) If you aren't clear, ask the information desk. A map is available at: http://www.slcpl.lib.ut.us/details.jsp?parent_id=5&page_id=91 for all floor plans of the library. Also, our meetings should be posted on the Electric Signs by the entrance to the library on the first floor. See you all there. Cheers, Clint From bms at mscis.org Thu Mar 5 20:48:09 2009 From: bms at mscis.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Thu Mar 5 20:15:06 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: backup crontab script In-Reply-To: <8bcade370903041530w2c63ae8fx4c20fec427ff9fef@mail.gmail.com> References: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> <8bcade370903041524g3b00733bv6a6ea397623b2e37@mail.gmail.com> <8bcade370903041530w2c63ae8fx4c20fec427ff9fef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B09CF9.7000701@mscis.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lonnie Olson wrote: > Also, I see you using rsync and keeping date based archives. > > Let me introduce you to a wonderful little friend called rsnapshot > (http://rsnapshot.org/) > This tool is simply a frontend to rsync. > > "Using rsync and hard links, it is possible to keep multiple, full > backups instantly available. The disk space required is just a little > more than the space of one full backup, plus incrementals." > > Since it hard links non-changed files from the previous backup, it > saves disk space, but more than that, it saves time, gobs of time, > tons of time. Your method doesn't take advantage of any of the rsync > algorithms for copying only changes. rsnapshot makes great use of > this, with also providing you multiple versions. > > --lonnie Thank you Lonnie. You are truly a wealth of information. I'll be implementing rsnapshot very soon. As for my question on whether to backup tar files, I think I'll agree with you and Richard. If I make a mistake it's probably better to have too much backed up than too little. Brandon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmwnPkACgkQx0pgn74qrcK8DgCgqGK/DkEopGAO0eAvLfRDwPPx SzUAoLTkPHQ2jqu+O6y3msmIbYWCuSxP =ETW5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From roger at itigger.com Fri Mar 6 11:10:24 2009 From: roger at itigger.com (Roger Smith) Date: Fri Mar 6 10:36:05 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: backup crontab script In-Reply-To: <8bcade370903041530w2c63ae8fx4c20fec427ff9fef@mail.gmail.com> References: <49AD8D75.1060109@mscis.org> <8bcade370903041524g3b00733bv6a6ea397623b2e37@mail.gmail.com> <8bcade370903041530w2c63ae8fx4c20fec427ff9fef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0508c059c4a5bd261bf96050b9b4e999.squirrel@jeremyshop.com> > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Lonnie Olson > wrote: > Let me introduce you to a wonderful little friend called rsnapshot > (http://rsnapshot.org/) > This tool is simply a frontend to rsync. > > "Using rsync and hard links, it is possible to keep multiple, full > backups instantly available. The disk space required is just a little > more than the space of one full backup, plus incrementals. " It depends on your requirements, but I would usally recomend rdiff-backup. Symilar to rsnapshot, they both keep one complete mirror copy. However, rdiff-backup keeps incremental backups as diff files rather than complete copies. The main advantage is space. Saving space means you can keep more snapshots and at a lower cost. I take snapshots every night on on my systems and many of them go back for two years. I usually use 2x the drive size than the drive/drives that I am backing up. There are advantages and disadvantages when comparing rsnapshot and rdiff-backup. Over all, I have been extremely happy with rdiff-backup and highly recommend it for those with a tight budget, or everyday desktop use. From blendmaster1024 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 15:21:12 2009 From: blendmaster1024 at gmail.com (Christian Horne) Date: Fri Mar 6 14:46:46 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) developer program In-Reply-To: References: <2f932a4a0902271401k73b31ff0j743a59e440477055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: does it matter if i'm only fourteen? i meet all the other requirements (i know python, am fairly good, was already focusing all effort on getting better) On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Clint Savage wrote: > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Justin Brinkerhoff > wrote: > > Are they only in need of Python developers? Do they need any C, C++, > > Java, etc... ? > > > > Justin, > > Specifically, they are after python developers. The activities they > are trying to create in the sugar desktop are all python. The core of > the XO is built on Fedora 7 (soon to be Fedora 11) thus if you are > interested in helping the project indirectly, you could help the > Fedora Project with Java, C, C++, etc. > > Also, Fedora 10 has the 'sugar-desktop' as another desktop you can use > if you like. Just run the following and you can develop on your own > laptop for the sugar activities. > > yum groupinstall sugar-desktop > > Hope that helps clear things up. > > Cheers, > > Clint > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090306/eb5947a0/attachment.htm From herlo1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 16:00:11 2009 From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage) Date: Fri Mar 6 15:25:44 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) developer program In-Reply-To: References: <2f932a4a0902271401k73b31ff0j743a59e440477055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Christian, I would say it does not matter. However, I would want to just have a chat with you and your folks about the requirements so that everyone is aware of why you are getting the computer. I want to be as up-front with everyone about the program, show off the XO and have a commitment from you of a few hours per week. If you think that will work for you, I'd be more than happy to provide you with an XO. I do want to mention that I currently have 6 en route and those have already been filled, but I have had two requests since then, so I'll be placing another request later this week. I'll expect to receive those late next week or early the following. Here's the standard response otherwise. ----------------------------------------------------------- Here's the deal. Sign up on the fourth grade maths mailing list, read up on the XO / Sugar development cycle and get ready to receive your XO. If you have Fedora already installed on a machine at home, go ahead and start getting comfortable with the Sugar Desktop. It can be installed by running 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' from the command line. As far as getting you the XO, I'd like to meet you in person to give it to you. That way we can chat about what's expected of you and make sure you are comfortable with the requirements. Pretty straightforward really, so when I get the XOs here (a new order is being placed tomorrow), I'll get with you and a few of the other folks who've committed to getting started. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for your interest and I look forward to meeting you very soon. Hopefully next week. Cheers, Clint On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Christian Horne wrote: > does it matter if i'm only fourteen? > i meet all the other requirements > (i know python, am fairly good, was already focusing all effort on getting > better) > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Clint Savage wrote: >> >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Justin Brinkerhoff >> wrote: >> > Are they only in need of Python developers? Do they need any C, C++, >> > Java, etc... ? >> > >> >> Justin, >> >> Specifically, they are after python developers. ?The activities they >> are trying to create in the sugar desktop are all python. ?The core of >> the XO is built on Fedora 7 (soon to be Fedora 11) thus if you are >> interested in helping the project indirectly, you could help the >> Fedora Project with Java, C, C++, etc. >> >> Also, Fedora 10 has the 'sugar-desktop' as another desktop you can use >> if you like. ?Just run the following and you can develop on your own >> laptop for the sugar activities. >> >> yum groupinstall sugar-desktop >> >> Hope that helps clear things up. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Clint >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > From blendmaster1024 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 16:14:29 2009 From: blendmaster1024 at gmail.com (Christian Horne) Date: Fri Mar 6 15:40:10 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) developer program In-Reply-To: References: <2f932a4a0902271401k73b31ff0j743a59e440477055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: i'll be at the metting on wednesday (i'll probably get there at 8:30, it's my first time) with my mom. On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Clint Savage wrote: > Christian, > > I would say it does not matter. However, I would want to just have a > chat with you and your folks about the requirements so that everyone > is aware of why you are getting the computer. I want to be as > up-front with everyone about the program, show off the XO and have a > commitment from you of a few hours per week. > > If you think that will work for you, I'd be more than happy to provide > you with an XO. I do want to mention that I currently have 6 en route > and those have already been filled, but I have had two requests since > then, so I'll be placing another request later this week. I'll expect > to receive those late next week or early the following. Here's the > standard response otherwise. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Here's the deal. Sign up on the fourth grade maths mailing list, read > up on the XO / Sugar development cycle and get ready to receive your > XO. If you have Fedora already installed on a machine at home, go > ahead and start getting comfortable with the Sugar Desktop. It can be > installed by running 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' from the command > line. > > As far as getting you the XO, I'd like to meet you in person to give > it to you. That way we can chat about what's expected of you and make > sure you are comfortable with the requirements. Pretty > straightforward really, so when I get the XOs here (a new order is > being placed tomorrow), I'll get with you and a few of the other folks > who've committed to getting started. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for your interest and I look forward to meeting you very soon. > Hopefully next week. > > Cheers, > > Clint > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Christian Horne > wrote: > > does it matter if i'm only fourteen? > > i meet all the other requirements > > (i know python, am fairly good, was already focusing all effort on > getting > > better) > > > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Clint Savage wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Justin Brinkerhoff > >> wrote: > >> > Are they only in need of Python developers? Do they need any C, C++, > >> > Java, etc... ? > >> > > >> > >> Justin, > >> > >> Specifically, they are after python developers. The activities they > >> are trying to create in the sugar desktop are all python. The core of > >> the XO is built on Fedora 7 (soon to be Fedora 11) thus if you are > >> interested in helping the project indirectly, you could help the > >> Fedora Project with Java, C, C++, etc. > >> > >> Also, Fedora 10 has the 'sugar-desktop' as another desktop you can use > >> if you like. Just run the following and you can develop on your own > >> laptop for the sugar activities. > >> > >> yum groupinstall sugar-desktop > >> > >> Hope that helps clear things up. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Clint > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > >> sllug-members@sllug.org > >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > > sllug-members@sllug.org > > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090306/e3ca185b/attachment.html From blendmaster1024 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 17:43:13 2009 From: blendmaster1024 at gmail.com (Christian Horne) Date: Fri Mar 6 17:08:47 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) developer program In-Reply-To: References: <2f932a4a0902271401k73b31ff0j743a59e440477055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: oh and i just noticed the 'commitment of a few hours' thing - i could do maybe 20 hours a week? at least ten. probably 20. (if it's fun, and if it's programming, i would be a lot it will be fun) On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Christian Horne wrote: > i'll be at the metting on wednesday > (i'll probably get there at 8:30, it's my first time) > with my mom. > > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Clint Savage wrote: > >> Christian, >> >> I would say it does not matter. However, I would want to just have a >> chat with you and your folks about the requirements so that everyone >> is aware of why you are getting the computer. I want to be as >> up-front with everyone about the program, show off the XO and have a >> commitment from you of a few hours per week. >> >> If you think that will work for you, I'd be more than happy to provide >> you with an XO. I do want to mention that I currently have 6 en route >> and those have already been filled, but I have had two requests since >> then, so I'll be placing another request later this week. I'll expect >> to receive those late next week or early the following. Here's the >> standard response otherwise. >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Here's the deal. Sign up on the fourth grade maths mailing list, read >> up on the XO / Sugar development cycle and get ready to receive your >> XO. If you have Fedora already installed on a machine at home, go >> ahead and start getting comfortable with the Sugar Desktop. It can be >> installed by running 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' from the command >> line. >> >> As far as getting you the XO, I'd like to meet you in person to give >> it to you. That way we can chat about what's expected of you and make >> sure you are comfortable with the requirements. Pretty >> straightforward really, so when I get the XOs here (a new order is >> being placed tomorrow), I'll get with you and a few of the other folks >> who've committed to getting started. >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Thanks for your interest and I look forward to meeting you very soon. >> Hopefully next week. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Clint >> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Christian Horne >> wrote: >> > does it matter if i'm only fourteen? >> > i meet all the other requirements >> > (i know python, am fairly good, was already focusing all effort on >> getting >> > better) >> > >> > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Clint Savage wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Justin Brinkerhoff >> >> wrote: >> >> > Are they only in need of Python developers? Do they need any C, C++, >> >> > Java, etc... ? >> >> > >> >> >> >> Justin, >> >> >> >> Specifically, they are after python developers. The activities they >> >> are trying to create in the sugar desktop are all python. The core of >> >> the XO is built on Fedora 7 (soon to be Fedora 11) thus if you are >> >> interested in helping the project indirectly, you could help the >> >> Fedora Project with Java, C, C++, etc. >> >> >> >> Also, Fedora 10 has the 'sugar-desktop' as another desktop you can use >> >> if you like. Just run the following and you can develop on your own >> >> laptop for the sugar activities. >> >> >> >> yum groupinstall sugar-desktop >> >> >> >> Hope that helps clear things up. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> Clint >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> > >> > >> > ______________________________________________________________________ >> > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> > sllug-members@sllug.org >> > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090306/703c65be/attachment.htm From herlo1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 18:24:56 2009 From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage) Date: Fri Mar 6 17:50:29 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) developer program In-Reply-To: References: <2f932a4a0902271401k73b31ff0j743a59e440477055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Christian, I've not yet set a time to deliver these XOs to everyone. Wednesday may work, but I'll send out an email to everyone very soon once the machines arrive. Glad you are excited. Ten hours a week is quite sufficient, thanks for your commitment. Cheers, Clint On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Christian Horne wrote: > > oh and i just noticed the 'commitment of a few hours' > thing - i could do maybe 20 hours a week? at least ten. probably 20. > (if it's fun, and if it's programming, i would be a lot it will be fun) > On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Christian Horne > wrote: >> >> i'll be at the metting on wednesday >> (i'll probably get there at 8:30, it's my first time) >> with my mom. >> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Clint Savage wrote: >>> >>> Christian, >>> >>> I would say it does not matter. ?However, I would want to just have a >>> chat with you and your folks about the requirements so that everyone >>> is aware of why you are getting the computer. ?I want to be as >>> up-front with everyone about the program, show off the XO and have a >>> commitment from you of a few hours per week. >>> >>> If you think that will work for you, I'd be more than happy to provide >>> you with an XO. ?I do want to mention that I currently have 6 en route >>> and those have already been filled, but I have had two requests since >>> then, so I'll be placing another request later this week. ?I'll expect >>> to receive those late next week or early the following. ?Here's the >>> standard response otherwise. >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Here's the deal. ?Sign up on the fourth grade maths mailing list, read >>> up on the XO / Sugar development cycle and get ready to receive your >>> XO. ?If you have Fedora already installed on a machine at home, go >>> ahead and start getting comfortable with the Sugar Desktop. ?It can be >>> installed by running 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' from the command >>> line. >>> >>> As far as getting you the XO, I'd like to meet you in person to give >>> it to you. ?That way we can chat about what's expected of you and make >>> sure you are comfortable with the requirements. ?Pretty >>> straightforward really, so when I get the XOs here (a new order is >>> being placed tomorrow), I'll get with you and a few of the other folks >>> who've committed to getting started. >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Thanks for your interest and I look forward to meeting you very soon. >>> Hopefully next week. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Clint >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Christian Horne >>> wrote: >>> > does it matter if i'm only fourteen? >>> > i meet all the other requirements >>> > (i know python, am fairly good, was already focusing all effort on >>> > getting >>> > better) >>> > >>> > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Clint Savage wrote: >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Justin Brinkerhoff >>> >> wrote: >>> >> > Are they only in need of Python developers? Do they need any C, C++, >>> >> > Java, etc... ? >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> Justin, >>> >> >>> >> Specifically, they are after python developers. ?The activities they >>> >> are trying to create in the sugar desktop are all python. ?The core of >>> >> the XO is built on Fedora 7 (soon to be Fedora 11) thus if you are >>> >> interested in helping the project indirectly, you could help the >>> >> Fedora Project with Java, C, C++, etc. >>> >> >>> >> Also, Fedora 10 has the 'sugar-desktop' as another desktop you can use >>> >> if you like. ?Just run the following and you can develop on your own >>> >> laptop for the sugar activities. >>> >> >>> >> yum groupinstall sugar-desktop >>> >> >>> >> Hope that helps clear things up. >>> >> >>> >> Cheers, >>> >> >>> >> Clint >>> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >>> >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >>> >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >>> >> sllug-members@sllug.org >>> >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________________________________________________ >>> > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >>> > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >>> > sllug-members@sllug.org >>> > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >>> > >>> > >>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >>> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >>> sllug-members@sllug.org >>> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > From bmidgley at xmission.com Sat Mar 7 22:52:15 2009 From: bmidgley at xmission.com (Brad Midgley) Date: Sat Mar 7 22:17:54 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast Message-ID: <49B35D0F.2020902@xmission.com> Hey Some notes of local interest. I gave up on the hd dvr from comcast and also reduced the package we get from them to the bare minimum. It's not that bad a bunch o' channels but it did finally push me over the edge to get my mythtv box going. The machine I wanted to use is stuck on ubuntu 8.04 for now and mythtv front end segfaults when I try to view video. Too bad... I had to use a dedicated 8.10 box. Inside mythtv, I did "cable" (no high/hrc/irc) scans in both qam64 and qam256 to find channels. I found I had to edit the channels and set the name and the xml id. The id is needed to get the listings to work. It's worth noting that I can't get anything over the air, so it's comcast or nothing. I found what I could pull in from comcast did not change that much when I went from a more complete to their "limited basic" package. Comedy central is about the only thing I cared about that I lost... and it's only standard def. So I get hd channels 2.1, 4.1, 5.1 and 5.?(weather), 7.1, 13.1 as well as standard def for some channels of interest including discovery and history. I was using an hd3000. It had a firmware problem with audio but even after fixing that I believe I'm having fewer hd video glitches using a new hdhomerun. The dual digital tuners and infrared receiver come in handy. I'm limited in my local stash to machines that came out of server environments, so I have nothing with AGP... an ATI radeon 9200 on PCI is apparently not fast enough to keep up with hd to a 1360x768 tv. I will get an nvidia pci card on ebay to see if that helps. I haven't tinkered with video settings in mythtv to improve the signal (is looks complex and discouraging). Anyway, good fun. It's nice to be done with the closed comcast box and be on something that is more flexible. Brad From benko.kevin at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 23:35:33 2009 From: benko.kevin at gmail.com (Kevin Benko) Date: Sun Mar 8 23:01:57 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Debian and XMMS Message-ID: <200903090035.59201.benko.kevin@gmail.com> I am probably one of the few people left that uses XMMS, arguably the best audio player in the galaxy. Sadly, the Debian project has opted to no longer include the package in their repositories. For those out there that may not have already found an alternate way to use XMMS in a debian distribution (and you could just *not* delete the existing package and hope that you never have to reinstall from a repository): For the XMMS package itself, include the following to /etc/apt/sources.list deb http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~knuta/xmms/lenny ./ deb-src http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~knuta/xmms/lenny ./ This will include XMMS and most of the plugins. (you can also get the XMMS packages from the debian old-stable repository, but I've had conflicts resulting from multiple versions of the GTK libraries from the debian repositories) You can get the source for the last.fm scrobbler plugin and the arts plugin from sourceforge.net (and probably freshmeat.net). Freshmeat.net also has some xmms skins. [[Hey... some of us still like XMMS when we want a quick and dirty media player, and audacious isn't a 100% drop in replacement for XMMS, and while the XMMS source code is an unholy mess.... it's still a great little media player]] -- Kevin Benko "Every writer who confines himself to severe logic owes nothing to anyone. There is but one honorable revenge to take on him, and that is to reason against him and do so better." -- Joseph de Maistre -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/9082e747/attachment.pgp From millard at iomega.com Mon Mar 9 08:48:57 2009 From: millard at iomega.com (Dennis Millard) Date: Mon Mar 9 08:41:09 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> Message-ID: <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> Brad Midgley wrote: > I'm limited in my local stash to machines that came out of server > environments, so I have nothing with AGP... an ATI radeon 9200 on PCI is > apparently not fast enough to keep up with hd to a 1360x768 tv. I will > get an nvidia pci card on ebay to see if that helps. I haven't tinkered > with video settings in mythtv to improve the signal (is looks complex > and discouraging). > > Brad- Its been my experience that the video card is not the real bottleneck... its the CPU. I built a MythTV box specifically for HD off-the-air using an HD3000 and a 2.0 GHz P4. My video playback would stutter once every second or so. The MythTV wiki recommends at least 2.4 or 2.6 GHz for HD video. When I swapped it out for a 3.0 Ghz P4, my video playback was smooth and defect free... even with the motherboard's integrated on-board video output. It takes a certain amount of horsepower to decode a high-res MPEG2 in software, there's not getting around it. Some of these set-top boxes that play media from a home server or the internet (like the Roku Netflix movie player) use a dedicated hardware decoder chip similar to what's inside a DVD player. Something I'd really like to see is a PCI card with a hardware video codec to allow an underpowered (read cheap) PC to act as a MythTV front end capable of High-Def. -Dennis Millard From jshatch at azza.com Mon Mar 9 10:03:42 2009 From: jshatch at azza.com (Jarom Hatch) Date: Mon Mar 9 09:29:25 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> Message-ID: <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> Not sure what the difference was but when I initially built my mythtv I was running into stuttering video as well. I built mine on an Athlon 64 2.0 GHz (single core, 1GB RAM) and at first I thought the cpu was underpowered but after a little tweaking (and at the time, switching to Mythtv-trunk) it's now as smooth as silk playing back live and recorded HD content and I've been running this setup for over 3 years now. The only thing it skips a little on is using mplayer to play back 1080p quicktime videos downloaded from apple.com/trailers. Other formats like mkv and x264, as well as lesser HD quicktime resolutions work flawlessly. So yes, >2GHz is recommended but it *is* possible to set up a well-working HD MythTV on a 2.0GHz Athlon64 with a Geforce 6200. Jarom Dennis Millard wrote: > Brad Midgley wrote: >> I'm limited in my local stash to machines that came out of server >> environments, so I have nothing with AGP... an ATI radeon 9200 on PCI >> is apparently not fast enough to keep up with hd to a 1360x768 tv. I >> will get an nvidia pci card on ebay to see if that helps. I haven't >> tinkered with video settings in mythtv to improve the signal (is looks >> complex and discouraging). >> >> > Brad- > Its been my experience that the video card is not the real bottleneck... > its the CPU. I built a MythTV box specifically for HD off-the-air using > an HD3000 and a 2.0 GHz P4. My video playback would stutter once every > second or so. The MythTV wiki recommends at least 2.4 or 2.6 GHz for HD > video. When I swapped it out for a 3.0 Ghz P4, my video playback was > smooth and defect free... even with the motherboard's integrated > on-board video output. > It takes a certain amount of horsepower to decode a high-res MPEG2 in > software, there's not getting around it. Some of these set-top boxes > that play media from a home server or the internet (like the Roku > Netflix movie player) use a dedicated hardware decoder chip similar to > what's inside a DVD player. Something I'd really like to see is a PCI > card with a hardware video codec to allow an underpowered (read cheap) > PC to act as a MythTV front end capable of High-Def. > > -Dennis Millard > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/f88e36c1/signature.pgp From mark.k.spute at L-3com.com Mon Mar 9 10:17:49 2009 From: mark.k.spute at L-3com.com (mark.k.spute@L-3com.com) Date: Mon Mar 9 09:43:30 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Maillog question Message-ID: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED5@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Hi list. I finally got postfix working over the weekend. (Postfix 2.3.x on a CentOS5 box) My maillog files were filled with extraneous junk from the install so I wanted to clean it out. I deleted the file and then created a new one using vi. But now nothing logs to the maillog file. I copied maillog.1 to maillog overwriting the file I created, but still nothing. Then I tried: cat /dev/null > /var/log/maillog to erase all the junk in there. The long and the short of it is that when I start or stop postfix, or reload, nothing shows up in my maillog. How can I fix this, and what is the proper way to clean out a stuffed up log file? Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/b0f0f164/attachment.htm From remo at italy1.com Mon Mar 9 10:22:25 2009 From: remo at italy1.com (Remo Mattei) Date: Mon Mar 9 09:48:03 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Maillog question In-Reply-To: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED5@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Message-ID: You have logrotate that does this for you.. Remo From: Reply-To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:17:49 -0600 To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Subject: [sllug-members]: Maillog question Hi list. I finally got postfix working over the weekend. (Postfix 2.3.x on a CentOS5 box) My maillog files were filled with extraneous junk from the install so I wanted to clean it out. I deleted the file and then created a new one using vi. But now nothing logs to the maillog file. I copied maillog.1 to maillog overwriting the file I created, but still nothing. Then I tried: cat /dev/null > /var/log/maillog to erase all the junk in there. The long and the short of it is that when I start or stop postfix, or reload, nothing shows up in my maillog. How can I fix this, and what is the proper way to clean out a stuffed up log file? Mark !DSPAM:49b54fc7272131486156858! ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members !DSPAM:49b54fc7272131486156858! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/4d7b34ef/attachment.html From zspecialk at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 10:23:16 2009 From: zspecialk at gmail.com (Scott K) Date: Mon Mar 9 09:48:49 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> Message-ID: <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Jarom Hatch wrote: > underpowered but after a little tweaking (and at the time, switching to > Mythtv-trunk) it's now as smooth as silk playing back live and recorded > HD content OP said that he was using server hardware, so this is probably superfluous, but it seems like a good Dual core system should be better at catching interrupts and taking care of system management with one core while the other core focuses on media decoding. That said, bus traffic and memory bandwidth still need to be limited and tweaked if you have other services and traffic fighting for processor time and stuttering your video. I'm looking at getting one of the new mac minis for playing with. Since they claim extremely low power draw, it seems like they would be nice for an always on Myth setup (if you found a large efficient external drive setup). Anyone ever tried this? From roger at itigger.com Mon Mar 9 10:56:45 2009 From: roger at itigger.com (Roger Smith) Date: Mon Mar 9 10:22:24 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6eed9f340f42b31b135992e8f7045a82.squirrel@jeremyshop.com> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Jarom Hatch wrote: >> underpowered but after a little tweaking (and at the time, switching to >> Mythtv-trunk) it's now as smooth as silk playing back live and recorded >> HD content > > OP said that he was using server hardware, so this is probably > superfluous, but it seems like a good Dual core system should be > better at catching interrupts and taking care of system management > with one core while the other core focuses on media decoding. That > said, bus traffic and memory bandwidth still need to be limited and > tweaked if you have other services and traffic fighting for processor > time and stuttering your video. I found that it is beneficial to have as many cores/processors as possible rather than just increasing the clock cycles/speed. This way job scheduling doesn't interrupt playback by eating into the cycle time of other processes. If you have multiple tuners and you transcode, run commercial skip, and perform other types of post processing, having a separate CPU for each task seems to be key. Because you can't do everything purely with hardware, to avoid jittering, I wouldn't use anything less than 2 cores. Furthermore, with only 2 cores I would restrict mythtv to 1 child process for post processing. I haven't used myth in a while, but I know they have there own jargon for this idea. I will say, I never had jitter using a quad core system. From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 9 11:00:03 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 9 10:25:36 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Maillog question In-Reply-To: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED5@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED5@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Message-ID: <1236621603.3547.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-09 at 11:17 -0600, mark.k.spute@L-3com.com wrote: > My maillog files were filled with extraneous junk from the install so > I wanted to clean it out. I deleted the file and then created a new > one using vi. But now nothing logs to the maillog file. service syslog restart -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From waoki at waoki.org Mon Mar 9 11:03:05 2009 From: waoki at waoki.org (Will Aoki) Date: Mon Mar 9 10:28:37 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Maillog question In-Reply-To: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED5@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED5@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Message-ID: <20090309180305.GA15523@waoki.org> On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 11:17:49AM -0600, mark.k.spute@L-3com.com wrote: > My maillog files were filled with extraneous junk from the install so I > wanted to clean it out. I deleted the file and then created a new one > using vi. But now nothing logs to the maillog file. [trimmed] > The long and the short of it is that when I start or stop postfix, or > reload, nothing shows up in my maillog. How can I fix this, and what is > the proper way to clean out a stuffed up log file? You should be letting a log rotation tool manage it for you, but if you're going to do it by hand, you need to signal syslogd (with SIGHUP, if memory serves) to close its old filehandle and reopen it. Syslogd still has a handle open to the original file that you deleted. Restarting Postfix will do nothing because, like most well-behaved daemons, it uses the syslog facility rather than managing its own log files. The normal procedure used by a log rotation tool is: 1: Rename log files: e.g. ${logfile} to ${logfile}.1 2: Create empty ${logfile} and set permissions 3: Kill syslogd with SIGHUP 4: Wait for syslogd to close its filehandle to the original log file 5: Do post-processing (e.g. compression) on ${logfile}.1 -- William Aoki waoki@waoki.org KD7YAF From jshatch at azza.com Mon Mar 9 12:58:37 2009 From: jshatch at azza.com (Jarom Hatch) Date: Mon Mar 9 12:24:29 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <6eed9f340f42b31b135992e8f7045a82.squirrel@jeremyshop.com> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> <6eed9f340f42b31b135992e8f7045a82.squirrel@jeremyshop.com> Message-ID: <49B574ED.3080208@azza.com> Roger Smith wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Jarom Hatch wrote: >>> underpowered but after a little tweaking (and at the time, switching to >>> Mythtv-trunk) it's now as smooth as silk playing back live and recorded >>> HD content >> OP said that he was using server hardware, so this is probably >> superfluous, but it seems like a good Dual core system should be >> better at catching interrupts and taking care of system management >> with one core while the other core focuses on media decoding. That >> said, bus traffic and memory bandwidth still need to be limited and >> tweaked if you have other services and traffic fighting for processor >> time and stuttering your video. > > I found that it is beneficial to have as many cores/processors as possible > rather than just increasing the clock cycles/speed. This way job > scheduling doesn't interrupt playback by eating into the cycle time of > other processes. If you have multiple tuners and you transcode, run > commercial skip, and perform other types of post processing, having a > separate CPU for each task seems to be key. Because you can't do > everything purely with hardware, to avoid jittering, I wouldn't use > anything less than 2 cores. Furthermore, with only 2 cores I would > restrict mythtv to 1 child process for post processing. I haven't used > myth in a while, but I know they have there own jargon for this idea. I > will say, I never had jitter using a quad core system. Nor do I have jitter with dual (used to be three) tuners, running commercial skip, etc and a single core processor. As with all things like this, YMMV... :) I guess I've been getting pretty good mileage. As for the Mac Mini question earlier, that's my next box, hopefully within a week or 3. I'm getting rid of this machine, mainly because I like to have it on all the time and it does use power... MMini, not as much. BTW, Hi Roger. :) Jarom -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/181c40bf/signature.pgp From jshatch at azza.com Mon Mar 9 13:07:27 2009 From: jshatch at azza.com (Jarom Hatch) Date: Mon Mar 9 12:33:06 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B576FF.8030703@azza.com> Scott K wrote: > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Jarom Hatch wrote: >> underpowered but after a little tweaking (and at the time, switching to >> Mythtv-trunk) it's now as smooth as silk playing back live and recorded >> HD content > > OP said that he was using server hardware, so this is probably > superfluous, but it seems like a good Dual core system should be > better at catching interrupts and taking care of system management > with one core while the other core focuses on media decoding. That > said, bus traffic and memory bandwidth still need to be limited and > tweaked if you have other services and traffic fighting for processor > time and stuttering your video. As for using server hardware, the only place it has for me in a mythtv setup is a dedicated backend machine... The frontend really should have at least AGP graphics... PCI is rather sluggish esp with HD video. Plus, if power consumption is a concern, it would be best to get a lower wattage machine that meets your needs rather than a dual socket dual core xeon with 4GB RAM and a 3 TB RAID... When I used a machine like that for my backend my power bill went up significantly... it was like paying for cable... :) Jarom -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/0ddbe200/signature.pgp From matthew at azza.com Mon Mar 9 13:15:40 2009 From: matthew at azza.com (Matthew Hatch) Date: Mon Mar 9 12:41:27 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <49B574ED.3080208@azza.com> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> <6eed9f340f42b31b135992e8f7045a82.squirrel@jeremyshop.com> <49B574ED.3080208@azza.com> Message-ID: <49B578EC.4080703@azza.com> Jarom Hatch wrote: > Roger Smith wrote: >>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Jarom Hatch wrote: >>>> underpowered but after a little tweaking (and at the time, switching to >>>> Mythtv-trunk) it's now as smooth as silk playing back live and recorded >>>> HD content >>> OP said that he was using server hardware, so this is probably >>> superfluous, but it seems like a good Dual core system should be >>> better at catching interrupts and taking care of system management >>> with one core while the other core focuses on media decoding. That >>> said, bus traffic and memory bandwidth still need to be limited and >>> tweaked if you have other services and traffic fighting for processor >>> time and stuttering your video. >> I found that it is beneficial to have as many cores/processors as possible >> rather than just increasing the clock cycles/speed. This way job >> scheduling doesn't interrupt playback by eating into the cycle time of >> other processes. If you have multiple tuners and you transcode, run >> commercial skip, and perform other types of post processing, having a >> separate CPU for each task seems to be key. Because you can't do >> everything purely with hardware, to avoid jittering, I wouldn't use >> anything less than 2 cores. Furthermore, with only 2 cores I would >> restrict mythtv to 1 child process for post processing. I haven't used >> myth in a while, but I know they have there own jargon for this idea. I >> will say, I never had jitter using a quad core system. > > Nor do I have jitter with dual (used to be three) tuners, running > commercial skip, etc and a single core processor. > > As with all things like this, YMMV... :) I guess I've been getting > pretty good mileage. > > As for the Mac Mini question earlier, that's my next box, hopefully > within a week or 3. I'm getting rid of this machine, mainly because I > like to have it on all the time and it does use power... MMini, not as > much. > > BTW, Hi Roger. :) > > Jarom My experience has been quite different with MythTV. I used to have it all on one machine, which was a 3.0GHz P4 with a Geforce 5200 and four tuners (two PVR-150's and an HDHomeRun). This actually proved to be a problem as the video would get pretty choppy at times. Granted, it may be because I had/have poor performance tuning and/or profile settings in MythTV, but it was horrible to the point that I rarely used the thing. I ended up splitting off the backend to my server in the basement for two reasons: 1.) Like Jarom and his Mac Mini, I want to have it on all the time so I can record any show I want without having to think to myself "Did I leave the computer on to record that show?" Since the file server downstairs is always on, it is now running the backend and has the two PVR-150's installed in it (and has network access to the HDHomeRun which is upstairs with the frontend). Thus, I only turn on the frontend computer when I feel like watching TV. 2.) Once I offloaded the backend processes (commercial flagging, recording, etc) to the dual-core server in the basement, the frontend started working a lot better. Also, for the record, I've experimented with various other means of speeding it up, especially using motion compensation with the nvidia drivers. I found the decrease in overall cpu usage to be negligible when offloading video playback to the video card using xvmc (maybe 2-5%), which was surprising. It basically confirms that it doesn't really matter what video card you're using as it's still mostly CPU that counts. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 257 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/11721f60/signature.pgp From mark.k.spute at L-3com.com Mon Mar 9 13:59:38 2009 From: mark.k.spute at L-3com.com (mark.k.spute@L-3com.com) Date: Mon Mar 9 13:25:17 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Postfix testing question Message-ID: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Thanks for all the replies to my previous question regarding the maillog issue. I have tested postfix by doing the following: Sendmail (username) Test . This has shown up in the user's mailbox, so I know that sendmail is accepting mail on the internal interface (or do I?) Now, without connecting to the internet, (since I have namesevers or zone files set up for this server yet) can I test to see if it will accept e-mail via eth0 on port 25? I have another server on the internal network, but I do not have telnet, only ssh. Thanks, Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/7e9be94a/attachment.html From matt at frozenatom.com Mon Mar 9 13:17:06 2009 From: matt at frozenatom.com (Matt Nelson) Date: Mon Mar 9 13:29:51 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <49B574ED.3080208@azza.com> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> <6eed9f340f42b31b135992e8f7045a82.squirrel@jeremyshop.com> <49B574ED.3080208@azza.com> Message-ID: <148f6bb30903091317j59e4283ei26776b3b7050f9f7@mail.gmail.com> I run a HDHomerun box and capture over the air. I found that I can offload a lot of the cpu load to the GPU for MPEG2 by using XVMC on my cheapo Nvidia cards. On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Jarom Hatch wrote: > Roger Smith wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Jarom Hatch wrote: > >>> underpowered but after a little tweaking (and at the time, switching to > >>> Mythtv-trunk) it's now as smooth as silk playing back live and recorded > >>> HD content > >> OP said that he was using server hardware, so this is probably > >> superfluous, but it seems like a good Dual core system should be > >> better at catching interrupts and taking care of system management > >> with one core while the other core focuses on media decoding. That > >> said, bus traffic and memory bandwidth still need to be limited and > >> tweaked if you have other services and traffic fighting for processor > >> time and stuttering your video. > > > > I found that it is beneficial to have as many cores/processors as > possible > > rather than just increasing the clock cycles/speed. This way job > > scheduling doesn't interrupt playback by eating into the cycle time of > > other processes. If you have multiple tuners and you transcode, run > > commercial skip, and perform other types of post processing, having a > > separate CPU for each task seems to be key. Because you can't do > > everything purely with hardware, to avoid jittering, I wouldn't use > > anything less than 2 cores. Furthermore, with only 2 cores I would > > restrict mythtv to 1 child process for post processing. I haven't used > > myth in a while, but I know they have there own jargon for this idea. I > > will say, I never had jitter using a quad core system. > > Nor do I have jitter with dual (used to be three) tuners, running > commercial skip, etc and a single core processor. > > As with all things like this, YMMV... :) I guess I've been getting > pretty good mileage. > > As for the Mac Mini question earlier, that's my next box, hopefully > within a week or 3. I'm getting rid of this machine, mainly because I > like to have it on all the time and it does use power... MMini, not as > much. > > BTW, Hi Roger. :) > > Jarom > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/13632a6f/attachment.htm From remo at italy1.com Mon Mar 9 14:07:32 2009 From: remo at italy1.com (Remo Mattei) Date: Mon Mar 9 13:33:09 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Postfix testing question In-Reply-To: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Message-ID: Sure send it for another computer... Ciao Remo From: Reply-To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 14:59:38 -0600 To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Subject: [sllug-members]: Postfix testing question Thanks for all the replies to my previous question regarding the maillog issue. I have tested postfix by doing the following: Sendmail (username) Test . This has shown up in the user's mailbox, so I know that sendmail is accepting mail on the internal interface (or do I?) Now, without connecting to the internet, (since I have namesevers or zone files set up for this server yet) can I test to see if it will accept e-mail via eth0 on port 25? I have another server on the internal network, but I do not have telnet, only ssh. Thanks, Mark !DSPAM:49b58431312911410093335! ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members !DSPAM:49b58431312911410093335! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/e7e984fc/attachment-0001.html From roger at itigger.com Mon Mar 9 14:10:16 2009 From: roger at itigger.com (Roger Smith) Date: Mon Mar 9 13:35:47 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <49B574ED.3080208@azza.com> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> <6eed9f340f42b31b135992e8f7045a82.squirrel@jeremyshop.com> <49B574ED.3080208@azza.com> Message-ID: <02ba5bbe12a01e6ca96aec28a1266f29.squirrel@jeremyshop.com> >> I found that it is beneficial to have as many cores/processors as >> possible >> I >> will say, I never had jitter using a quad core system. > > Nor do I have jitter with dual (used to be three) tuners, running > commercial skip, etc and a single core processor. > > As with all things like this, YMMV... :) I guess I've been getting > pretty good mileage. I do believe you. However, from my limited experience with mythtv (< 2 months), it seem that you would really need just the right hardware and settings along with some very conservative restrictions. If you only have old hardware, then you will probably figure out a way to make it work with what you have. It should also really help if you have a video 4 linux devices and it is properly installed, I have never had that. I also assume that you are working with digital HD, and want to record from all two/three tuners at once, most people would. All while transcoding to mpeg4, and running commercial skip, and decoding an mpeg4 to the TV. I usually want that stuff to run right after it's done being saved. You most certainly have the system wait until it appears to be idle. The type of thing that runs through my head, it seems like if I put my X-wife on this single CPU box, she would certainly find a way to bring it to it's knees, and I just don't want be hearing how crappy mythtv is for the rest of my life when I could have paid $20 for 2 more cores. Perhaps I am wrong and it is a matter of just tuning the system. It will take a little more reassurance for me that it's just a matter of properly tuning the system and not overly restricting it. > BTW, Hi Roger. :) > > Jarom Hey Jarom! :-) From marc at sllug.org Mon Mar 9 15:38:11 2009 From: marc at sllug.org (Marc Christensen) Date: Mon Mar 9 15:24:16 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: [Fwd: [sllug-officers]: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, March 5] Message-ID: <49B59A53.5070405@sllug.org> Here's the latest from O'Reilly: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [sllug-officers]: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, March 5 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:47:18 -0800 From: Marsee Henon To: sllug-officers@sllug.org [snip] ================================================================ O'Reilly News for User Group Members March 5, 2009 ================================================================ --------------------------------------------------------------- New Releases--Books, Short Cuts, and Rough Cuts ---------------------------------------------------------------- Get 35% off from O'Reilly, No Starch, Paraglyph, PC Publishing, Pragmatic Bookshelf, Rocky Nook, SitePoint, or YoungJin books and ebooks you purchase directly from O'Reilly. 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And here's a sample chapter "Mastering the Dynamic Toolkit" in PDF: Ignite Launches Weekly Video Series Highlighting the Best of Geek Culture Ignite captures the best of geek culture in a series of five-minute speed presentations on topics ranging from "The Best Way to Buy a Car" to "Hacking Chocolate" to "Transhuman Technology Trends." Imagine that you're on stage in front of an audience of hundreds of people, doing a five-minute presentation using a slide deck that auto-forwards every 15 seconds, whether you're ready or not. What would you do? What would you say? Could you stand the pressure? Every week, find out how some of the smartest minds on the planet dealt with this situation as your host, Brady Forrest, highlights a different talk from Ignites around the world. Safari Books Online Optimizes for Top Mobile Devices Safari Books Online Ubiquitous for Users On-the-Go Safari Books Online is now fully optimized to support the top mobile devices in the United States. The new website, m.safaribooksonline.com, optimizes Safari Books Online's content and reading experience for the majority of mobile phones (such as Nokia, BlackBerry, iPhone, and Windows Mobile), making it possible for users to read while on-the-go. ETech Preview: Creating Biological Legos If you've gotten tired of hacking firewalls or cloud computing, maybe it's time to try your hand with DNA. That's what Reshma Shetty is doing with her Doctorate in Biological Engineering from MIT. Apart from her crowning achievement of getting bacteria to smell like mint and bananas, she's also active in the developing field of synthetic biology and has recently helped found a company called Gingko BioWorks which is developing enabling technologies to allow for rapid prototyping of biological systems. ETech Preview: Inside Factory China, An Interview with Andrew Huang China has become the production workhorse of the consumer electronics industry. Almost anything you pick up at a Best Buy first breathed life across the Pacific Ocean. But what is it like to shepherd a product through the design and production process? Andrew "bunnie" Huang has done just that with the Chumby, a new internet appliance. Until next time-- Marsee Henon ================================================================ O'Reilly 1005 Gravenstein Highway North Sebastopol, CA 95472 800-998-9938 http://ug.oreilly.com/ Follow us on Twitter at http://twitter.com/OReillyMedia You are receiving this email because you are a User Group contact with O'Reilly Media. If you would like to stop receiving these newsletters or announcements from O'Reilly, send an email to marsee@oreilly.com ================================================================ From u235sentinel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 17:05:24 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Mon Mar 9 16:31:20 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Message-ID: <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> I just purchased Beginning Databases with PostgreSQL: From Novice to Professional and was curious what other books on PostgreSQL people could recommend. I'm supporting mySQL and Oracle 10g in my environment from A-Z and now I'm setting up a very large PostgreSQL database and need to get up to speed quickly. I have over 7 years experience with other databases so I'm not a Novice. The above book I figured would be good to get started with and has been recommended. Thoughts? Comments? :-) Thanks From beebe at math.utah.edu Mon Mar 9 17:51:09 2009 From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe) Date: Mon Mar 9 17:16:46 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> Message-ID: u235sentinel writes on Mon, 09 Mar 2009 18:05:24 -0600: >> I [am] curious what other books on PostgreSQL people could recommend. I track many things in extensive online bibliographies that are freely available to all. This one http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/index-table-s.html#sqlbooks lists at least 37 books on PostgreSQL, among the 540 books on SQL in general. If sllug-members readers know of books that are not listed there, I'll be happy to extend the bibliography on receipt of ISBN and author/title information. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From herlo1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 18:03:28 2009 From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage) Date: Mon Mar 9 17:28:59 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Reporting Software - Need something to stop the pain Message-ID: Hi all, At my newish job, I'm working on trying to build reports for the PHB's (Pointy Haired Bosses, read Dilbert if you don't know what this means) here. The reports seem to be about orders and sales in nature and mostly deals with mysql, sqlite and possibly other db servers. To this point, I've been investigating several reporting software solutions. Of which, here is a short list: * JasperServer * Pentaho / BIRT * MySQLReports * phpreportmaker * mydbr * PM Report (the most promising open source solution so far, but doesn't have multi-database capability) * I've considered writing my own solution as well, but time is of the essence. All of the above (and many others which don't even work, are not updated or require outdated libraries) make reporting difficult in some way. I'm looking for a solution to this problem and am laying out my needs to see what is possible and if anyone has a suggestion beyond writing my own reporting tools (which really seems silly): Feature Requirements: * Multi-database compatible * Export to csv * PHB proof, in other words, simple to explain and use * Web based (preferrably, if not, it must be cross platform) ** Independent of OO.o structures unles there's a web interface ** Independent of MS Excel structures *** Generating xls or csv is fine, but the data shouldn't originate or be processed through it * Anything but Java as a technology (most reporting tools are in Java these days) ** Removing Java from the equation is strategic, mainly because they do too much * simple filters, it's possible a view would work in some situations * Multiple data sources into one report * Have the ability to link one table to another, or link one database to another ** I can get around this by importing all the databases into one database server, but at this point, that's somewhat painful Feature Requests * Ability to save and run recurring reports * Does not have to have graphing capability, if the software has it, that's fine * Export to pdf, png, etc. An example (that's not free, but I may buy anyway) is QLR Manager (http://www.qlrmanager.com) as it accomplishes pretty much everything I wanted for our reporting without being too complex and difficult. If anyone has any input, I'd love to hear about the software you've tried, whether open or not. It's clear to me that the best tool/value for the job in this situation is likely what I will pursue. Thanks in advance for your well-thought responses. Cheers, Clint From eggyknap at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 18:38:01 2009 From: eggyknap at gmail.com (Joshua Tolley) Date: Mon Mar 9 18:03:31 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090310013800.GC17772@eddie> On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 06:05:24PM -0600, u235sentinel wrote: > I just purchased Beginning Databases with PostgreSQL: From Novice to > Professional and was curious what other books on PostgreSQL people could > recommend. There really aren't a lot of up-to-date PostgreSQL books these days. The book you've mentioned is really very old; PostgreSQL has changed dramatically since that time. Some of the basics will of course be the same, but if you really need to know things like supported query syntax, configuration options, additional modules, and especially performance tuning, you'll find something that old pretty inadequate. On the other hand, the PostgreSQL documentation is generally regarded as excellent, though of course your mileage may vary. Though in my experience the local folks are fairly MySQL-centric, there are a few of us PostgreSQL zealots in UDBUG (http://udbug.org), and the PostgreSQL mailing lists (http://www.postgresql.org/community/lists/) and IRC channel (irc://irc.freenode.net/postgresql) are generally very helpful to those that are willing to do their homework and watch their language. - Josh -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/8edc9ce5/attachment.pgp From eggyknap at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 18:42:08 2009 From: eggyknap at gmail.com (Joshua Tolley) Date: Mon Mar 9 18:07:37 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Reporting Software - Need something to stop the pain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090310014207.GD17772@eddie> On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 07:03:28PM -0600, Clint Savage wrote: > * Pentaho / BIRT I've played very briefly with this. It's Java (you know that already, I guess) and I wasn't able to make it do precisely what I wanted, but what I wanted pretty mathematically intense analytics -- it doesn't sound like that's what you're looking for necessarily. The advantage: if you do end up doing that kind of math in your reports, after you've gotten your statistics degree, Pentaho might be a really good bet, because it's based on a very popular data mining platform. If you find something exciting, blog about it, 'cuz I'm interested :) - Josh / eggyknap -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090309/629e2bec/attachment.pgp From u235sentinel at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 20:11:29 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Mon Mar 9 19:37:23 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <20090310013800.GC17772@eddie> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> <20090310013800.GC17772@eddie> Message-ID: <49B5DA61.4000602@gmail.com> I appreciate everyones comments. I realize this book is dated a bit (2005 edition) however it sounds like a good kickstart for someone with some experience in other databases. I figured it's a place to start. I'll check out the other references. I'm looking forward to messing with this. The database is going to be over 6 TB so I'll be doing quite a bit of homework. Wouldn't want to mess up with that much data :-) Thanks a bunch! Joshua Tolley wrote: > On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 06:05:24PM -0600, u235sentinel wrote: > >> I just purchased Beginning Databases with PostgreSQL: From Novice to >> Professional and was curious what other books on PostgreSQL people could >> recommend. >> > > There really aren't a lot of up-to-date PostgreSQL books these days. The > book you've mentioned is really very old; PostgreSQL has changed > dramatically since that time. Some of the basics will of course be the > same, but if you really need to know things like supported query syntax, > configuration options, additional modules, and especially performance > tuning, you'll find something that old pretty inadequate. > > On the other hand, the PostgreSQL documentation is generally regarded as > excellent, though of course your mileage may vary. Though in my > experience the local folks are fairly MySQL-centric, there are a few of > us PostgreSQL zealots in UDBUG (http://udbug.org), and the PostgreSQL > mailing lists (http://www.postgresql.org/community/lists/) and IRC > channel (irc://irc.freenode.net/postgresql) are generally very helpful > to those that are willing to do their homework and watch their language. > > - Josh > From rfg at csolutions.net Mon Mar 9 21:16:03 2009 From: rfg at csolutions.net (Rick Gregory) Date: Mon Mar 9 20:41:57 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B5E983.5020900@csolutions.net> u235sentinel wrote: > I just purchased Beginning Databases with PostgreSQL: From Novice to > Professional and was curious what other books on PostgreSQL people > could recommend. Here's what Amazon.com has that is newer: http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=&field-author=&field-title=PostgreSQL&field-isbn=&field-publisher=&node=5&url=field-is-available-new%3D1&field-feature_browse-bin=618083011&field-binding_browse-bin=&field-subject=&field-language=English&field-dateop=After&field-datemod=&field-dateyear=2005&sort=daterank&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=37&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=12 Beginning PHP and PostgreSQL 8: From Novice to Professional (Beginning: From Novice to Professional) by W. Jason Gilmore and Robert H. Treat seems to be a _slightly_ newer title in the same series and has the most of the few reviews these titles have received! -- Rick Gregory rfg@csolutions.net From fozz at xmission.com Mon Mar 9 23:28:36 2009 From: fozz at xmission.com (Doran L. Barton) Date: Mon Mar 9 22:54:46 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <49B5E983.5020900@csolutions.net> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> <49B5E983.5020900@csolutions.net> Message-ID: <200903100028.36484.fozz@xmission.com> On Monday 09 March 2009 22:16:03 Rick Gregory wrote: > Beginning PHP and PostgreSQL 8: From Novice to Professional (Beginning: > From Novice to Professional) It is encouraging that someone is recognizing there is another option for PHP developers than MySQL. Now maybe they'll figure out there's another option than PHP. :) -- Doran L. Barton - Linux, Perl, Web, good fun, and more! "Swim in the lovely pool while you drink it all in." -- Seen in a travel guide From eggyknap at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 08:02:13 2009 From: eggyknap at gmail.com (Joshua Tolley) Date: Tue Mar 10 07:27:42 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <49B5E983.5020900@csolutions.net> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> <49B5E983.5020900@csolutions.net> Message-ID: <20090310150212.GE17772@eddie> On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 10:16:03PM -0600, Rick Gregory wrote: > u235sentinel wrote: >> I just purchased Beginning Databases with PostgreSQL: From Novice to >> Professional and was curious what other books on PostgreSQL people >> could recommend. > Beginning PHP and PostgreSQL 8: From Novice to Professional (Beginning: > From Novice to Professional) > by W. Jason Gilmore and Robert H. Treat This is a fairly common one in the community, though still fairly dated. Robert Treat is well-known in the PostgreSQL world, and an active contributor. Anything that doesn't deal with at least version 8.0 of PostgreSQL is missing an awful lot of major evolution. As evidence beyond the rantings of an obvious PostgreSQL zealot, I offer the fact that the only PostgreSQL version previous to the 8.0 release that's still supported is 7.4, and it's getting pretty long in the tooth... - Josh -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090310/744b9f93/attachment-0001.pgp From ricardo.slacker at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 09:04:56 2009 From: ricardo.slacker at gmail.com (Ricardo) Date: Tue Mar 10 08:30:38 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <20090310150212.GE17772@eddie> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> <49B5E983.5020900@csolutions.net> <20090310150212.GE17772@eddie> Message-ID: <614c1080903100904t4f1e4c0q593ec60585e74475@mail.gmail.com> I haven't read any other books, so I have no basis for comparison, but I have a copy of "PostgreSQL: Developer's Handbook". It covers everything from compiling to administration to data types and query syntax. I've been using it as a reference for the past few years. Also, the online documentation is great. I probably use it more than anything else. --Shane Hansen On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Joshua Tolley wrote: > On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 10:16:03PM -0600, Rick Gregory wrote: > > u235sentinel wrote: > >> I just purchased Beginning Databases with PostgreSQL: From Novice to > >> Professional and was curious what other books on PostgreSQL people > >> could recommend. > > Beginning PHP and PostgreSQL 8: From Novice to Professional (Beginning: > > From Novice to Professional) > > by W. Jason Gilmore and Robert H. Treat > > This is a fairly common one in the community, though still fairly dated. > Robert Treat is well-known in the PostgreSQL world, and an active > contributor. Anything that doesn't deal with at least version 8.0 of > PostgreSQL is missing an awful lot of major evolution. As evidence > beyond the rantings of an obvious PostgreSQL zealot, I offer the fact > that the only PostgreSQL version previous to the 8.0 release that's > still supported is 7.4, and it's getting pretty long in the tooth... > > - Josh > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkm2gPQACgkQRiRfCGf1UMOd2gCeJEt+9jjdKgKpOfPvd0mC33S0 > 7M8An3+Lfb2/pxjPDv4Z4lyBXXtYxeoK > =cMiT > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090310/298993fb/attachment.html From kd7nyq at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 16:06:20 2009 From: kd7nyq at gmail.com (Andrew Jackman) Date: Tue Mar 10 15:31:50 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection Message-ID: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> Ladies (presumably) and Gentlemen: You seem like a reasonable bunch of folks and so I seek your advice. I must decide on the language which I will use for a decent sized software project. First, I'll provide some background. I have undertaken a project to redesign a database oriented file processing system. It was originally implemented using FoxPro with related utilities. As the system expanded (or rather its job description), it was modified heavily with third party applications, scripts, hacks, and so on. Its job is to generate large amounts of data in text form, upload statistics to a web server, and submit various kinds of data to archive facilities. Files come in the form of ZIPs which contain images and text. The proposed system will perform exactly the same functions as the old one, but it will be based on an SQL database and the unnecessary complexity will be eliminated. If security requirements were not so strict, I'd just send a picture of the existing systems and the system exemplifying our goal. Because of my lack of diversity in programming, I am requesting your input. After a reasonable amount of RTFM, I have limited my selection to the following sets. My limiting criteria included the requirement of a GUI for each processing application, multiple platform support (*NIX and Windows primarily), and popularity. The proposed languages are C++, Java, and C#. The proposed widget kits are Qt, GTK+, and wxWidgets. I am personally comfortable with C++ and Java. C# has been been recommended, but the proprietary nature of it scares me off a bit, same with Java. I'm personally biased towards compiled languages, leaving C++. I don't know anything about GUI toolkits as I've never been required to use one. As far as I'm aware, each one of these languages is well matched to the others in terms of database access, file manipulation, and community support. What would you all choose and why? Thanks. Andrew Jackman From jeffquiparle at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 16:38:00 2009 From: jeffquiparle at gmail.com (Jeff Shipley) Date: Tue Mar 10 16:03:31 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection In-Reply-To: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> References: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If you are comfortable with C++ and Java, then it would make sense to go with either of those. Qt is a decent system to work within, and the documentation that comes with it (via http://doc.trolltech.com/4.2/index.html or the Qt Assistant) is well-written and very informative. One major consideration with Qt would be the licensing cost for commercial development. If you would have to pay this fee for this product (you probably would), and you don't wish to pay, then GTK+ or wxWidgets would probably be a better choice. GTK+ and wxWidgets are also both very capable of doing what it sounds like you're planning, so some of the choice comes down to personal preference. Given the choice, I would probably go with Qt or GTK+. From sjansen at buscaluz.org Tue Mar 10 16:43:22 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Tue Mar 10 16:09:01 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection In-Reply-To: References: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1236728602.3602.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-03-10 at 17:38 -0600, Jeff Shipley wrote: > One major consideration with Qt > would be the licensing cost for commercial development. Actually, now that Qt 4.5 has been released under the LGPL, licensing isn't an issue. http://labs.qtsoftware.com/blogs/2009/03/03/qt-45-hits-the-virtual-shelves/ -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 17:46:32 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Tue Mar 10 17:12:04 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection In-Reply-To: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> References: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903101746w4f80abb8q36298076d6c9ac1c@mail.gmail.com> Well, based off your description, I would say a native language like C++ would be great. With it using both DOS and UNIX filesystem structures, the only huge difference in your code would be at the point where you make system calls, but thats to be expected of course. However, Java may be better for the job, as it allows for your code to be a bit more flexible. Additionally, Java SE has a very well written ODBC driver package that I have personally used for both Oracle, and SQL 200x. I have been contemplating on writing a MySQL backed Java app, just haven't got around to it. I'm sure the process is just as seamless though. The Java 6 SE API provides a lot of very excellent packages in its library to complete your task much faster and efficiently. I do agree with your standpoint on C#, as outside of the .NET framework its basically useless. However with Java, your writing for the JRE, in which it functions the exact same on Linux/UNIX, as it does on Mac and Windows, and that's the beauty of it. By using relative paths as opposed to static file paths, you will not need to change the code to access different file structures, if implemented correctly. Then just build a SWING object, or whatever your preferred package is for creating a window. After using C, C++, and a number of other languages, I've found that Java gets the job done most the time. However, on an opposing way of thinking, you may also consider going "the way of the cloud". You could construct a web application ran from the server using languages such as PHP and Ruby on Rails. Different people have different views about cloud computing, and most the time it comes down to preference and requirements. If you have a lot of remote users using the application, that may be the way to go. I hope this helped in your quest for the right language. :) Thanks, Justin On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Andrew Jackman wrote: > Ladies (presumably) and Gentlemen: > > You seem like a reasonable bunch of folks and so I seek your advice. > I must decide on the language which I will use for a decent sized > software project. ?First, I'll provide some background. > > I have undertaken a project to redesign a database oriented file > processing system. ?It was originally implemented using FoxPro with > related utilities. ?As the system expanded (or rather its job > description), it was modified heavily with third party applications, > scripts, hacks, and so on. ?Its job is to generate large amounts of > data in text form, upload statistics to a web server, and submit > various kinds of data to archive facilities. ?Files come in the form > of ZIPs which contain images and text. ?The proposed system will > perform exactly the same functions as the old one, but it will be > based on an SQL database and the unnecessary complexity will be > eliminated. ?If security requirements were not so strict, I'd just > send a picture of the existing systems and the system exemplifying our > goal. > > Because of my lack of diversity in programming, I am requesting your > input. ?After a reasonable amount of RTFM, I have limited my selection > to the following sets. ?My limiting criteria included the requirement > of a GUI for each processing application, multiple platform support > (*NIX and Windows primarily), and popularity. > > The proposed languages are C++, Java, and C#. ?The proposed widget > kits are Qt, GTK+, and wxWidgets. > > I am personally comfortable with C++ and Java. ?C# has been been > recommended, but the proprietary nature of it scares me off a bit, > same with Java. ?I'm personally biased towards compiled languages, > leaving C++. ?I don't know anything about GUI toolkits as I've never > been required to use one. ?As far as I'm aware, each one of these > languages is well matched to the others in terms of database access, > file manipulation, and community support. > > What would you all choose and why? ?Thanks. > > Andrew Jackman > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 17:48:48 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Tue Mar 10 17:14:20 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection In-Reply-To: <1236728602.3602.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> <1236728602.3602.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903101748p55c633fcwae7104812e71d13e@mail.gmail.com> The last I checked, it is dual licensed. It falls out of the LGPL when you try to sell the application to customers, but if written to use internally, that is fine. On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Stuart Jansen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-03-10 at 17:38 -0600, Jeff Shipley wrote: >> One major consideration with Qt >> would be the licensing cost for commercial development. > > Actually, now that Qt 4.5 has been released under the LGPL, licensing > isn't an issue. > > http://labs.qtsoftware.com/blogs/2009/03/03/qt-45-hits-the-virtual-shelves/ > > -- > "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't > using enough of it." - Chris Maden > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From sjansen at buscaluz.org Tue Mar 10 18:30:35 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Tue Mar 10 17:56:07 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903101748p55c633fcwae7104812e71d13e@mail.gmail.com> References: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> <1236728602.3602.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2f932a4a0903101748p55c633fcwae7104812e71d13e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1236735035.3602.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-03-10 at 17:48 -0700, Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > The last I checked, it is dual licensed. It falls out of the LGPL when > you try to sell the application to customers, but if written to use > internally, that is fine. You misunderstand the LGPL if you think that Nokia can revoke your distribution rights when you start to sell your application. Perhaps you are confused because Qt is now triple licensed. But even under the older terms of the GPL Trolltech/Nokia did't prevent you from selling your app. They simply required that your app also be GPL. (Okay, things were a little more complicated with Qt < 4.5 because of the Qt GPL Exception, but it basically boiled down to something similar to pure GPL. http://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/license-gpl-exceptions.html ) -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From u235sentinel at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 18:40:44 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Tue Mar 10 18:06:37 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <49B5E983.5020900@csolutions.net> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> <49B5E983.5020900@csolutions.net> Message-ID: <49B7169C.4080609@gmail.com> Yeah, I've looked all over Amazon and found a few books. I was wondering if any of these were good or not. Several were not rated or had a 1 star rating. The two on PHP coding with Postgres I considered but I'm not developing the front end. We're looking at either SAS, Kettle or something else. Haven't decided yet. We know we're definitely going for Postgres as the database however. Today I just finished building the system. It's running Solaris 10 with ZFS on a Sun x4540 server. 12 Terabytes raw with about 5 Tb usable for the database. This is going to be fun :-) Speaking of which, I'm wondering if there is a class here that teaches Postgres. Thanks! Rick Gregory wrote: > u235sentinel wrote: >> I just purchased Beginning Databases with PostgreSQL: From Novice to >> Professional and was curious what other books on PostgreSQL people >> could recommend. > Here's what Amazon.com has that is newer: > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=&field-author=&field-title=PostgreSQL&field-isbn=&field-publisher=&node=5&url=field-is-available-new%3D1&field-feature_browse-bin=618083011&field-binding_browse-bin=&field-subject=&field-language=English&field-dateop=After&field-datemod=&field-dateyear=2005&sort=daterank&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=37&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=12 > > > > > Beginning PHP and PostgreSQL 8: From Novice to Professional > (Beginning: From Novice to Professional) > > by W. Jason Gilmore and Robert H. Treat seems to be a _slightly_ > newer title in the same series and has the most of the few reviews > these titles have received! > > -- Rick Gregory > rfg@csolutions.net > From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 18:53:28 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Tue Mar 10 18:19:00 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection In-Reply-To: <1236735035.3602.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> <1236728602.3602.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2f932a4a0903101748p55c633fcwae7104812e71d13e@mail.gmail.com> <1236735035.3602.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903101853v6832b01do62c99489b0abb312@mail.gmail.com> Ah, yeah. That sounds about right. It's been a while since I've used QT, so I haven't kept track of the licensing very heavily. Finally got around to installing QT 4.5 on my Mac a couple months ago. Last time I used it was a few years back on QT Designer 3.x on Fedora Core 3 I think it was. The interface has changed a lot, and now I'm trying to relearn it, LOL. On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Stuart Jansen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-03-10 at 17:48 -0700, Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: >> The last I checked, it is dual licensed. It falls out of the LGPL when >> you try to sell the application to customers, but if written to use >> internally, that is fine. > > You misunderstand the LGPL if you think that Nokia can revoke your > distribution rights when you start to sell your application. > > Perhaps you are confused because Qt is now triple licensed. But even > under the older terms of the GPL Trolltech/Nokia did't prevent you from > selling your app. They simply required that your app also be GPL. > > (Okay, things were a little more complicated with Qt < 4.5 because of > the Qt GPL Exception, but it basically boiled down to something similar > to pure GPL. http://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/license-gpl-exceptions.html ) > > -- > "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't > using enough of it." - Chris Maden > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From eggyknap at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 20:10:15 2009 From: eggyknap at gmail.com (Joshua Tolley) Date: Tue Mar 10 19:35:54 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <49B7169C.4080609@gmail.com> References: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096ED6@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> <49B5AEC4.10609@gmail.com> <49B5E983.5020900@csolutions.net> <49B7169C.4080609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090311031014.GB24273@eddie> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 07:40:44PM -0600, u235sentinel wrote: > Speaking of which, I'm wondering if there is a class here that teaches > Postgres. EnterpriseDB periodically does online seminars[1]. They're given by Bruce Momjian, who has been on the PostgreSQL core team pretty much ever since the project was forked from Berkeley's PostQUEL. I've heard Bruce speak a number of times, and he does a decent job. I don't know of anyone local that gives classes following a regular schedule or anything, but (shameless plug) my day job[2] would certainly be willing to arrange such a thing, and can put up a pretty good argument that we're qualified to do so. - Josh 1: http://www.enterprisedb.com/learning/webcasts.do 2: http://www.endpoint.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090310/bcdc92ca/attachment.pgp From etierra at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 00:05:39 2009 From: etierra at gmail.com (Bryan Petty) Date: Tue Mar 10 23:31:10 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection In-Reply-To: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> References: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Andrew Jackman wrote: > My limiting criteria included the requirement > of a GUI for each processing application, multiple platform support > (*NIX and Windows primarily), and popularity. > > The proposed languages are C++, Java, and C#. ?The proposed widget > kits are Qt, GTK+, and wxWidgets. FWIW, I have been working in C++ with wxWidgets full time for over 5 years now, and am also one of the official developers on the wxWidgets project... Against the recommendations of everyone else here, I'd have to say that this is something that would probably best be done in Python with wxPython. wxPython is one of the easiest, cleanest, cross-platform GUI toolkits to use from Python in addition to Python's powerful, easy to use file and database APIs. wxWidgets has decent file and streams support, but I don't think it's better than Python's builtin API, and the latest development version of wxWidgets has just removed the only official database API that was available in previous versions (wxODBC), but you would have been better off using one of the many Python database modules anyway too. I guess this all depends on how familiar with Python you are. PyQt may also be an option, though I've never touched it. I'm obviously going to be a little bias here, but I know PyQt offers Qt's database APIs in addition to Python's standard ones, and you may prefer to use those instead (though I really like PEP 0249). Anyway, my main point is that I think this would best be done in Python. No need to deal with C++ semantics and issues for this job, especially if it's just an in-house project for which you don't have time to waste hunting down bugs. Regards, Bryan Petty From herlo1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 09:00:46 2009 From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage) Date: Wed Mar 11 08:26:18 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: A quick reminder: LVM @ SLLUG Daytime SIG - SL Public Library Message-ID: Kevin Benko is presenting on LVM today at 11:30am. Bring your sack lunch (or get something at the deli/nearby). Conference room A on the lower level of the Salt Lake Library has been reserved. Head down the stairs, make a left turn. The conference room is directly under the foyer area (the area with all the shops on the 1st level) If you aren?t clear, ask the information desk. A map is available [1] of all floor plans of the library. Also, our meetings should be posted on the Electric Signs by the entrance to the library on the first floor. Cheers, Clint 1 - http://www.slcpl.lib.ut.us/details.jsp?parent_id=5&page_id=91 From unum at unum5.org Wed Mar 11 09:16:01 2009 From: unum at unum5.org (Kyle Waters) Date: Wed Mar 11 08:41:52 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: A quick reminder: LVM @ SLLUG Daytime SIG - SL Public Library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49B7E3C1.3010101@unum5.org> Clint Savage wrote: > Kevin Benko is presenting on LVM today at 11:30am. Bring your sack > lunch (or get something at the deli/nearby). > And you are all invited to stay for my introductory class on html at 2 in the computer lab. Though it's probably a little basic for most of you. Kyle From richard at esplins.org Wed Mar 11 09:30:59 2009 From: richard at esplins.org (Richard Esplin) Date: Wed Mar 11 11:46:03 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection In-Reply-To: References: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200903111031.00156.richard-lists@esplins.org> I recently used both wxPython and PyQt. A couple thoughts: I tried wxPython first, but had to switch because it was too slow for my specific use case. I had a very complex GUI and it wasn't snappy enough. However, it could have been the Dabo libraries that were causing the lag. Dabo (http://dabodev.com) is a really nice wrapper around wxPython that makes it a lot more pythonic and it makes database driven desktop applications _easy_. Anyone using wxPython should check them out. Many of the problems I was struggling with were supposed to be fixed in their 0.9 version, which I haven't tried yet. I found the Qt API to be cleaner than the wxWidgets API, and the documentation was better. But the duplication between the Qt way of doing things and the Python way of doing things was at times confusing (violated Zen of Python #13). It took a while to learn to decipher the PyQt documentation, but once I did I found it was pretty good. Last I heard, PyQt had not adopted the Qt licensing changes. PyQt is distributed by a British company that has no incentive to release under the LGPL (they use the same model Trolltech did before they were acquired by Nokia). PyQt's GPL licensing worked great for my app, and I think it is a library worth paying for if you aren't releasing as open source. The newest version of PyQt is even more pythonic. I highly recommend it. Good luck, Richard Esplin On Wednesday 11 March 2009 01:05:39 Bryan Petty wrote: > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Andrew Jackman wrote: > > My limiting criteria included the requirement > > of a GUI for each processing application, multiple platform support > > (*NIX and Windows primarily), and popularity. > > > > The proposed languages are C++, Java, and C#. ?The proposed widget > > kits are Qt, GTK+, and wxWidgets. > > FWIW, I have been working in C++ with wxWidgets full time for over 5 > years now, and am also one of the official developers on the wxWidgets > project... > > Against the recommendations of everyone else here, I'd have to say > that this is something that would probably best be done in Python with > wxPython. wxPython is one of the easiest, cleanest, cross-platform GUI > toolkits to use from Python in addition to Python's powerful, easy to > use file and database APIs. wxWidgets has decent file and streams > support, but I don't think it's better than Python's builtin API, and > the latest development version of wxWidgets has just removed the only > official database API that was available in previous versions > (wxODBC), but you would have been better off using one of the many > Python database modules anyway too. I guess this all depends on how > familiar with Python you are. > > PyQt may also be an option, though I've never touched it. I'm > obviously going to be a little bias here, but I know PyQt offers Qt's > database APIs in addition to Python's standard ones, and you may > prefer to use those instead (though I really like PEP 0249). > > Anyway, my main point is that I think this would best be done in > Python. No need to deal with C++ semantics and issues for this job, > especially if it's just an in-house project for which you don't have > time to waste hunting down bugs. > > Regards, > Bryan Petty From spencer at mecworks.com Wed Mar 11 13:46:19 2009 From: spencer at mecworks.com (Spencer Christensen) Date: Wed Mar 11 13:11:56 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? In-Reply-To: <19980295.141236804100787.JavaMail.schristensen@schristensen-laptop> Message-ID: <6001725.161236804280720.JavaMail.schristensen@schristensen-laptop> ----- Original Message ----- Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:10:15 -0600 From: Joshua Tolley Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: PostgreSQL books? On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 07:40:44PM -0600, u235sentinel wrote: > Speaking of which, I'm wondering if there is a class here that teaches > Postgres. EnterpriseDB periodically does online seminars[1]. They're given by Bruce Momjian, who has been on the PostgreSQL core team pretty much ever since the project was forked from Berkeley's PostQUEL. I've heard Bruce speak a number of times, and he does a decent job. I don't know of anyone local that gives classes following a regular schedule or anything, but (shameless plug) my day job[2] would certainly be willing to arrange such a thing, and can put up a pretty good argument that we're qualified to do so. - Josh 1: http://www.enterprisedb.com/learning/webcasts.do 2: http://www.endpoint.com Hi all, There are several Postgres experts on this list as well who would be glad to answer questions. All of the folks at Backcountry.com use Postgres and many of us are on this mailing list. And I can personally vouch for both EnterpriseDB and Endpoint as excellent resources as well. :-) I will say that I first learned Postgres from the old book by Bruce Momjian (http://www.amazon.com/PostgreSQL-Introduction-Concepts-Bruce-Momjian/dp/0201703319/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236803869&sr=8-21) and have used online documentation since then and haven't purchased a book since on it, so I don't know much about them to recommend any of them. Perhaps a "Postgres Basics" would be a good SLLUG meeting topic? -spencer christensen From bmidgley at xmission.com Wed Mar 11 19:06:41 2009 From: bmidgley at xmission.com (Brad Midgley) Date: Wed Mar 11 18:32:23 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: mythtv vs. comcast In-Reply-To: <148f6bb30903091317j59e4283ei26776b3b7050f9f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903081900.n28J05n5012726@sllug.org> <49B53A69.8090903@iomega.com> <49B54BEE.2020805@azza.com> <90cf3c3d0903091023t164f9a51m57777e9bf27335cd@mail.gmail.com> <6eed9f340f42b31b135992e8f7045a82.squirrel@jeremyshop.com> <49B574ED.3080208@azza.com> <148f6bb30903091317j59e4283ei26776b3b7050f9f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B86E31.3060107@xmission.com> Matt > I run a HDHomerun box and capture over the air. I found that I can > offload a lot of the cpu load to the GPU for MPEG2 by using XVMC on my > cheapo Nvidia cards. I replaced my pci ati card with an nvidia mx4000 based card to try to do what you're doing. Most content is much improved using xvmc, but I get random flashing in some content (sd and hd) and I have to set all content to use the same xvmc decoder or hd content locks up the player... maybe I am trying to do too much with too little (no agp) or maybe I'm just one setting away from perfection. :) The machine is a single-core 2.8Ghz p4. hd video playback stutters when the osd appears, but I think that is just inevitable because the video is no longer a pure mpeg2 stream while the osd is up. Brad From kd7nyq at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 15:14:39 2009 From: kd7nyq at gmail.com (Andrew Jackman) Date: Thu Mar 12 14:40:19 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Programming Language Selection In-Reply-To: <200903111031.00156.richard-lists@esplins.org> References: <79c119390903101606r1ad93978h7f99a13d683c2f72@mail.gmail.com> <200903111031.00156.richard-lists@esplins.org> Message-ID: <79c119390903121514m53e688a7yd43bb7e734bfd870@mail.gmail.com> Thank you, gentlemen, for your input. It's one thing to look up the specs, but quite another to hear how the mileage varies. On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Richard Esplin wrote: > I recently used both wxPython and PyQt. A couple thoughts: > > I tried wxPython first, but had to switch because it was too slow for my > specific use case. I had a very complex GUI and it wasn't snappy enough. > However, it could have been the Dabo libraries that were causing the lag. > > Dabo (http://dabodev.com) is a really nice wrapper around wxPython that makes > it a lot more pythonic and it makes database driven desktop applications > _easy_. Anyone using wxPython should check them out. Many of the problems I > was struggling with were supposed to be fixed in their 0.9 version, which I > haven't tried yet. > > I found the Qt API to be cleaner than the wxWidgets API, and the documentation > was better. But the duplication between the Qt way of doing things and the > Python way of doing things was at times confusing (violated Zen of Python > #13). It took a while to learn to decipher the PyQt documentation, but once I > did I found it was pretty good. > > Last I heard, PyQt had not adopted the Qt licensing changes. PyQt is > distributed by a British company that has no incentive to release under the > LGPL (they use the same model Trolltech did before they were acquired by > Nokia). PyQt's GPL licensing worked great for my app, and I think it is a > library worth paying for if you aren't releasing as open source. > > The newest version of PyQt is even more pythonic. I highly recommend it. > > Good luck, > > Richard Esplin > > On Wednesday 11 March 2009 01:05:39 Bryan Petty wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Andrew Jackman wrote: >> > My limiting criteria included the requirement >> > of a GUI for each processing application, multiple platform support >> > (*NIX and Windows primarily), and popularity. >> > >> > The proposed languages are C++, Java, and C#. ?The proposed widget >> > kits are Qt, GTK+, and wxWidgets. >> >> FWIW, I have been working in C++ with wxWidgets full time for over 5 >> years now, and am also one of the official developers on the wxWidgets >> project... >> >> Against the recommendations of everyone else here, I'd have to say >> that this is something that would probably best be done in Python with >> wxPython. wxPython is one of the easiest, cleanest, cross-platform GUI >> toolkits to use from Python in addition to Python's powerful, easy to >> use file and database APIs. wxWidgets has decent file and streams >> support, but I don't think it's better than Python's builtin API, and >> the latest development version of wxWidgets has just removed the only >> official database API that was available in previous versions >> (wxODBC), but you would have been better off using one of the many >> Python database modules anyway too. I guess this all depends on how >> familiar with Python you are. >> >> PyQt may also be an option, though I've never touched it. I'm >> obviously going to be a little bias here, but I know PyQt offers Qt's >> database APIs in addition to Python's standard ones, and you may >> prefer to use those instead (though I really like PEP 0249). >> >> Anyway, my main point is that I think this would best be done in >> Python. No need to deal with C++ semantics and issues for this job, >> especially if it's just an in-house project for which you don't have >> time to waste hunting down bugs. >> >> Regards, >> Bryan Petty > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From rll123 at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 14 12:28:10 2009 From: rll123 at sbcglobal.net (Robert Lewis) Date: Sat Mar 14 12:06:48 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: share Message-ID: <49BC054A.6080100@sbcglobal.net> I helped a friend get his XP application to work flawlessly under wine. It is a program that runs his business and does customer tracking. It has file and record locking etc. He would like to convert his shop to run on all linux machines and have this xp application accessable via the network for all his users. i.e. not installed on each machine but only on a server. It's not clear to me if there is a best way to do this so I am casting about to learn what you might suggest. Cheers, Bob From u235sentinel at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 13:21:05 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Sat Mar 14 12:47:12 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: share In-Reply-To: <49BC054A.6080100@sbcglobal.net> References: <49BC054A.6080100@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <49BC11B1.5070904@gmail.com> The first question that comes to my mind is will the application run ok under a network server and what are it's requirements? Running a Windows application under WINE isn't terribly tough, usually. Some run better than others. Some not at all. And networking an application is even more interesting :-) What's the name of the application? The problem I see is if the server will run the app under WINE and share at all. The first place I'd look under is http://winehq.com. I've spent quite a lot of time there this last year. I don't waste my time with a Windows application unless it has Gold or Platinum status. Not usually anyway. Robert Lewis wrote: > I helped a friend get his XP application to work flawlessly under wine. > It is a program that runs his business and does customer tracking. > It has file and record locking etc. > > He would like to convert his shop to run on all linux machines and have > this xp application accessable via the network for all his users. > i.e. not installed on each machine but only on a server. > > It's not clear to me if there is a best way to do this so I am casting about > to learn what you might suggest. > > Cheers, > Bob > From bob.l.lewis at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 13:33:01 2009 From: bob.l.lewis at gmail.com (Robert Lewis) Date: Sat Mar 14 12:58:55 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: share In-Reply-To: <49BC11B1.5070904@gmail.com> References: <49BC054A.6080100@sbcglobal.net> <49BC11B1.5070904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86d2b63e0903141333r5f21bb31v308281347a37ac67@mail.gmail.com> The application name is logiserv. I didn't mention it because my expectation was that no one would have heard the name before. The point is that it works great under wine. Now we want to access it from several networked computers. Bob On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:21 PM, u235sentinel wrote: > The first question that comes to my mind is will the application run ok > under a network server and what are it's requirements? > > Running a Windows application under WINE isn't terribly tough, usually. > Some run better than others. Some not at all. And networking an > application is even more interesting :-) > > What's the name of the application? > > > The problem I see is if the server will run the app under WINE and share at > all. > > The first place I'd look under is http://winehq.com. I've spent quite a > lot of time there this last year. I don't waste my time with a Windows > application unless it has Gold or Platinum status. Not usually anyway. > > > > Robert Lewis wrote: > >> I helped a friend get his XP application to work flawlessly under wine. >> It is a program that runs his business and does customer tracking. >> It has file and record locking etc. >> >> He would like to convert his shop to run on all linux machines and have >> this xp application accessable via the network for all his users. >> i.e. not installed on each machine but only on a server. >> >> It's not clear to me if there is a best way to do this so I am casting >> about >> to learn what you might suggest. >> >> Cheers, >> Bob >> >> > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090314/fce42635/attachment.html From u235sentinel at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 14:07:16 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Sat Mar 14 13:33:23 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: share In-Reply-To: <86d2b63e0903141333r5f21bb31v308281347a37ac67@mail.gmail.com> References: <49BC054A.6080100@sbcglobal.net> <49BC11B1.5070904@gmail.com> <86d2b63e0903141333r5f21bb31v308281347a37ac67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49BC1C84.9080803@gmail.com> Ok. I see it's not in their database so it's uncharted territory here :-) I'm thinking perhaps start with the simplest setup and work from there. If the application is a client/server then perhaps just setting up a server running WINE and the application from that server. Next running linux desktops all with WINE and your app front end on each desktop. If it's not a client/server app then maybe nfs or samba mounts to the server running your app? I'm curious since it runs under Windows XP if the software supports a networked environment. One of the biggest problems I've seen with desktop apps in a network is file locking. Can drive you crazy! Just a couple of thoughts. Robert Lewis wrote: > The application name is logiserv. > I didn't mention it because my expectation was that no one > would have heard the name before. > > The point is that it works great under wine. > Now we want to access it from several networked computers. > > Bob From fozz at xmission.com Sat Mar 14 14:29:36 2009 From: fozz at xmission.com (Doran L. Barton) Date: Sat Mar 14 13:56:02 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: share In-Reply-To: <49BC054A.6080100@sbcglobal.net> References: <49BC054A.6080100@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200903141529.37239.fozz@xmission.com> On Saturday 14 March 2009 13:28:10 Robert Lewis wrote: > I helped a friend get his XP application to work flawlessly under wine. > It is a program that runs his business and does customer tracking. > It has file and record locking etc. > > He would like to convert his shop to run on all linux machines and have > this xp application accessable via the network for all his users. > i.e. not installed on each machine but only on a server. > > It's not clear to me if there is a best way to do this so I am casting > about to learn what you might suggest. I recommend a liberal amount of testing under the conditions which the application will be running. If and when you do deploy it for "production," make sure you have regular backup procedures of data files in place. -- Doran L. Barton - Linux, Perl, Web, good fun, and more! "Do you like bowling? Let's play bowling. Breaking down the pins and get hot communication." -- A sign in Japan From bob.l.lewis at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 15:05:49 2009 From: bob.l.lewis at gmail.com (Robert Lewis) Date: Sat Mar 14 14:32:03 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: share In-Reply-To: <49BC1C84.9080803@gmail.com> References: <49BC054A.6080100@sbcglobal.net> <49BC11B1.5070904@gmail.com> <86d2b63e0903141333r5f21bb31v308281347a37ac67@mail.gmail.com> <49BC1C84.9080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86d2b63e0903141505u3a457719jda42dbbdcf006b8a@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, that feedback was just what I was looking for. It will be awhile before I attempt to deploy this. Cheers, Bob On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 2:07 PM, u235sentinel wrote: > Ok. I see it's not in their database so it's uncharted territory here :-) > > I'm thinking perhaps start with the simplest setup and work from there. If > the application is a client/server then perhaps just setting up a server > running WINE and the application from that server. Next running linux > desktops all with WINE and your app front end on each desktop. > > If it's not a client/server app then maybe nfs or samba mounts to the > server running your app? > > I'm curious since it runs under Windows XP if the software supports a > networked environment. One of the biggest problems I've seen with desktop > apps in a network is file locking. Can drive you crazy! > > Just a couple of thoughts. > > > Robert Lewis wrote: > >> The application name is logiserv. >> I didn't mention it because my expectation was that no one >> would have heard the name before. >> >> The point is that it works great under wine. >> Now we want to access it from several networked computers. >> >> Bob >> > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090314/3b9a31ab/attachment.htm From bob.l.lewis at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 15:05:49 2009 From: bob.l.lewis at gmail.com (Robert Lewis) Date: Sat Mar 14 14:32:42 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: share In-Reply-To: <49BC1C84.9080803@gmail.com> References: <49BC054A.6080100@sbcglobal.net> <49BC11B1.5070904@gmail.com> <86d2b63e0903141333r5f21bb31v308281347a37ac67@mail.gmail.com> <49BC1C84.9080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86d2b63e0903141505u3a457719jda42dbbdcf006b8a@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, that feedback was just what I was looking for. It will be awhile before I attempt to deploy this. Cheers, Bob On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 2:07 PM, u235sentinel wrote: > Ok. I see it's not in their database so it's uncharted territory here :-) > > I'm thinking perhaps start with the simplest setup and work from there. If > the application is a client/server then perhaps just setting up a server > running WINE and the application from that server. Next running linux > desktops all with WINE and your app front end on each desktop. > > If it's not a client/server app then maybe nfs or samba mounts to the > server running your app? > > I'm curious since it runs under Windows XP if the software supports a > networked environment. One of the biggest problems I've seen with desktop > apps in a network is file locking. Can drive you crazy! > > Just a couple of thoughts. > > > Robert Lewis wrote: > >> The application name is logiserv. >> I didn't mention it because my expectation was that no one >> would have heard the name before. >> >> The point is that it works great under wine. >> Now we want to access it from several networked computers. >> >> Bob >> > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090314/3b9a31ab/attachment-0001.html From sdmorrey at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 01:00:10 2009 From: sdmorrey at gmail.com (Steven Morrey) Date: Sun Mar 15 00:25:47 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Scalable Database design question. Message-ID: I've been studying database design for a while, most in an effort to learn how to maximize efficiency. So here's a question I've been trying to wrap my mind around for a bit. This is mainly for you DBA's out there, but anyone can/should feel free to chime in. If I were to try and store an organic (disordered) hierarchy in a database what would be the best starting point and how would one find the optimum storage arrangement. Here are a couple of examples. Imagine if you will storing the genealogy for a culture where a person could have multiple mothers and fathers in addition to multiple siblings. My initial answer would be a unique identifier for each person and then a separate column for each type of relationship, i.e. Mothers, Fathers, Brothers, Sisters, Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents etc. Is there a better way? How about a social networking database, what would that look like? Again my initial thought is a unique identifier per account, and then a column for each parent (each person above you), and each child (those who were invited by you) and each friend (those whom you've found a common interest. A final example would be a user defined grouping system. For instance a user we'll call him Joe creates a group called Blue Team, and adds his collegues to that group. While another user we'll call Jane creates a group called downsized and adds the Blue Team along with other groups. How would a person on the Blue team know that they are now a part of the downsized group as well? Thanks in advance for the answers folks! Sincerely, Steve These don't feel like optimal solutions to me, but I thought I'd pose the questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090315/ee12b620/attachment.htm From kahn at xmission.com Sun Mar 15 06:04:04 2009 From: kahn at xmission.com (kahn@xmission.com) Date: Sun Mar 15 05:29:42 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Scalable Database design question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090315070404.2o7zvydfyg4ksw8k@webmail.xmission.com> Quoting Steven Morrey : > Imagine if you will storing the genealogy for a culture where a person could > have multiple mothers and fathers in addition to multiple siblings. > My initial answer would be a unique identifier for each person and then a > separate column for each type of relationship, i.e. Mothers, Fathers, > Brothers, Sisters, Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents etc. > Is there a better way? It's just a thought, but, I'd abstract out the relationship/group itself. Store it in a separate table that would easily allow you to accommodate a one to many relationship. Whether or not your relationship table and your group table were the same entity, would largely depend on the nature of the two but certainly you could create a table to maintain groups, then you might just maintain a relationship to a group. > > How about a social networking database, what would that look like? > Again my initial thought is a unique identifier per account, and then a > column for each parent (each person above you), and each child (those who > were invited by you) and each friend (those whom you've found a common > interest. > Again, I suspect that if you try to maintain this type of information in single columns in an individual table, your going to get messy fairly quickly. Break it up so that people are the individual entities and their relationships are tracked separately. If you wanted to abstract it one level more, you create a table of relationship types and then a table to track basically individualID is a member of relationshipID (You'd likely want an identity field in there someplace). I may be overdoing things a bit, as I've told people in the past, I'm not a DBA, nor do I play one on television. That might work better; especially if you are planning on storing "Groups" in the "Relationships" table as that would allow you to maintain group information, potential contact info etc in that space. > A final example would be a user defined grouping system. For instance a > user we'll call him Joe creates a group called Blue Team, and adds his > collegues to that group. While another user we'll call Jane creates a group > called downsized and adds the Blue Team along with other groups. How would > a person on the Blue team know that they are now a part of the downsized > group as well? As for how all that gets laid out on the disk, we'll your way outside my realm of expertise on that one...it's a hardware problem ;-) ...but that's just one fella's opinion. -- Jon. Cannon "There is no magik. We are not the architects of our own lives. We're monkeys strapped to a rocket and the only way to exert any influence over it's trajectory is by working really really hard." -Mary Shannon In Plain Sight(2008) From mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com Sun Mar 15 12:10:00 2009 From: mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com (Matt Warnock) Date: Sun Mar 15 11:35:51 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Scalable Database design question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49BD5288.3090900@ridgecrestherbals.com> In THEORY, any database can ultimately be denormalized to two fields: key and value. But it rarely makes sense to do so. Len Silverston makes this point in his universal data modeling books, where he is talking about data warehousing, where tables may morph over time. Sounds like you may have a similar problem. I'd recommend those books. You seem to assume a single self-referencing table that has columns in it for relationships, e.g. create table person ( id int, name text, birthdate date, father int references person(id), mother int references person(id), ); OK for single or biological relationships, but when you get multiple fathers/mothers, it breaks, because you can't be adding a column every time. Also, how do you identify siblings, half-siblings, etc. Not to mention the "Johnny has two daddies" situation, or step-parents, and so on. So then we move to a two-table design, where the relationship is tracked OUTSIDE the person table. Easiest way is probably a simple relationship table like this: create relation child ( parent_id int references person(id), child_id int references person(id), ); The advantage is that you can now have any number of parents and/or children, but you can't tell a father from a mother with this table. The disadvantage is that you need a new table for each relationship type. Note also that some relationships like cousins or siblings are reversible (I am a cousin to every person who has me as a cousin) while other relations like parents or brothers are not (could be a sister). If your relationships are unknown, morph over time, or very complex, you can create a more flexible relationships table like this: create table relationship ( id int, from_id int references person(id), description text, to_id int references person(id) ); You can then insert any relationship you want (using the proper person ID), such as: John "is a husband to" Mary Mary "is a wife to" John Mary "is an ex-wife to" Bob Bob "is the father of" Billy-Bob Billy-Bob "is a son of" Bob Billy-Bob "is a son of" Mary Billy-Bob "is a step-son of" John Billy-Bob "is a member of" Blue Team Billy-Bob "is a step-brother to" Zack Peter "is the father of" John Peter "is the step-grandfather of" Billy-Bob Billy-Bob "goes to school with" Zooey You can track to most complicated relationships in this way, but you better be consistent about naming the text descriptions, or your relationships will break. Also there is redundant info here, like entries #1 and #2. So you can change the description field to a third table: create table relation_type ( id int, description text, ); Then use the ID in the relationship table instead of the description: relation_type_id int references relation_type(id), This lets you record "John is married to Mary" and you can also know by the from and to fields that Mary is also married to John, and that Mary is the Wife, and John the Husband. Look at GEDCOM data structures for genealogical/marriage/parenting relations between individuals, they are the defacto standard. Group membership also requires a table to define the group "Blue TEam" or "Downsized" and a table to link each member of the group to the group. Also, can the group include groups per se, or just the individual members of another group. Saying "add the blue team to the downsized group" may be different from adding the MEMBERS to the group. If you add a new mwmber to the Blue Team, are they also downsized? Point is, you probably need to carefully define the types of the relationships, then create tables for the relationship type, and instances for each appropriate relation. Big subject, but hopefully this points you in an appropriate direction. Steven Morrey wrote: > I've been studying database design for a while, most in an effort to > learn how to maximize efficiency. > So here's a question I've been trying to wrap my mind around for a bit. > This is mainly for you DBA's out there, but anyone can/should feel free > to chime in. > > If I were to try and store an organic (disordered) hierarchy in a > database what would be the best starting point and how would one find > the optimum storage arrangement. > Here are a couple of examples. > > Imagine if you will storing the genealogy for a culture where a person > could have multiple mothers and fathers in addition to multiple siblings. > My initial answer would be a unique identifier for each person and then > a separate column for each type of relationship, i.e. Mothers, Fathers, > Brothers, Sisters, Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents etc. > Is there a better way? > > How about a social networking database, what would that look like? > Again my initial thought is a unique identifier per account, and then a > column for each parent (each person above you), and each child (those > who were invited by you) and each friend (those whom you've found a > common interest. > > A final example would be a user defined grouping system. For instance a > user we'll call him Joe creates a group called Blue Team, and adds his > collegues to that group. While another user we'll call Jane creates a > group called downsized and adds the Blue Team along with other groups. > How would a person on the Blue team know that they are now a part of the > downsized group as well? > > Thanks in advance for the answers folks! > > Sincerely, > Steve > These don't feel like optimal solutions to me, but I thought I'd pose > the questions > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members -- Matt Warnock, President RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. From ricardo.slacker at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 20:45:53 2009 From: ricardo.slacker at gmail.com (Ricardo) Date: Sun Mar 15 20:11:33 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Scalable Database design question In-Reply-To: <49BD5288.3090900@ridgecrestherbals.com> References: <49BD5288.3090900@ridgecrestherbals.com> Message-ID: <614c1080903152045sde2f833wde159d516b4ad84d@mail.gmail.com> Ultimately you're talking about modeling a graph. Two good ways for this are adjecency lists and matrices. Check out wikipedia for a primer on lists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjacency_list Adjecency lists map fairly well to RDMBs and family/social relationships, which tend to be sparse. Adjecency lists are fairly compact. If your application is going to spend alot of time querying extended relationships (grandchildren, cousins), you may look into creating some sort of auxiliary index. --Shane On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Matt Warnock < mwarnock@ridgecrestherbals.com> wrote: > In THEORY, any database can ultimately be denormalized to two fields: key > and value. But it rarely makes sense to do so. Len Silverston makes this > point in his universal data modeling books, where he is talking about data > warehousing, where tables may morph over time. Sounds like you may have a > similar problem. I'd recommend those books. > > You seem to assume a single self-referencing table that has columns in it > for relationships, e.g. > > create table person ( > id int, > name text, > birthdate date, > father int references person(id), > mother int references person(id), > ); > > OK for single or biological relationships, but when you get multiple > fathers/mothers, it breaks, because you can't be adding a column every time. > Also, how do you identify siblings, half-siblings, etc. Not to mention the > "Johnny has two daddies" situation, or step-parents, and so on. > > So then we move to a two-table design, where the relationship is tracked > OUTSIDE the person table. Easiest way is probably a simple relationship > table like this: > > create relation child ( > parent_id int references person(id), > child_id int references person(id), > ); > > The advantage is that you can now have any number of parents and/or > children, but you can't tell a father from a mother with this table. The > disadvantage is that you need a new table for each relationship type. Note > also that some relationships like cousins or siblings are reversible (I am a > cousin to every person who has me as a cousin) while other relations like > parents or brothers are not (could be a sister). > > > If your relationships are unknown, morph over time, or very complex, you > can create a more flexible relationships table like this: > > create table relationship ( > id int, > from_id int references person(id), > description text, > to_id int references person(id) > ); > > You can then insert any relationship you want (using the proper person ID), > such as: > John "is a husband to" Mary > Mary "is a wife to" John > Mary "is an ex-wife to" Bob > Bob "is the father of" Billy-Bob > Billy-Bob "is a son of" Bob > Billy-Bob "is a son of" Mary > Billy-Bob "is a step-son of" John > Billy-Bob "is a member of" Blue Team > Billy-Bob "is a step-brother to" Zack > Peter "is the father of" John > Peter "is the step-grandfather of" Billy-Bob > Billy-Bob "goes to school with" Zooey > > You can track to most complicated relationships in this way, but you better > be consistent about naming the text descriptions, or your relationships will > break. Also there is redundant info here, like entries #1 and #2. So you > can change the description field to a third table: > > create table relation_type ( > id int, > description text, > ); > > Then use the ID in the relationship table instead of the description: > relation_type_id int references relation_type(id), > > This lets you record "John is married to Mary" and you can also know by the > from and to fields that Mary is also married to John, and that Mary is the > Wife, and John the Husband. Look at GEDCOM data structures for > genealogical/marriage/parenting relations between individuals, they are the > defacto standard. > > Group membership also requires a table to define the group "Blue TEam" or > "Downsized" and a table to link each member of the group to the group. > Also, can the group include groups per se, or just the individual members > of another group. Saying "add the blue team to the downsized group" may be > different from adding the MEMBERS to the group. If you add a new mwmber to > the Blue Team, are they also downsized? > > Point is, you probably need to carefully define the types of the > relationships, then create tables for the relationship type, and instances > for each appropriate relation. Big subject, but hopefully this points you > in an appropriate direction. > > Steven Morrey wrote: > >> I've been studying database design for a while, most in an effort to learn >> how to maximize efficiency. >> So here's a question I've been trying to wrap my mind around for a bit. >> This is mainly for you DBA's out there, but anyone can/should feel free to >> chime in. >> >> If I were to try and store an organic (disordered) hierarchy in a database >> what would be the best starting point and how would one find the optimum >> storage arrangement. >> Here are a couple of examples. >> >> Imagine if you will storing the genealogy for a culture where a person >> could have multiple mothers and fathers in addition to multiple siblings. >> My initial answer would be a unique identifier for each person and then a >> separate column for each type of relationship, i.e. Mothers, Fathers, >> Brothers, Sisters, Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents etc. >> Is there a better way? >> >> How about a social networking database, what would that look like? >> Again my initial thought is a unique identifier per account, and then a >> column for each parent (each person above you), and each child (those who >> were invited by you) and each friend (those whom you've found a common >> interest. >> >> A final example would be a user defined grouping system. For instance a >> user we'll call him Joe creates a group called Blue Team, and adds his >> collegues to that group. While another user we'll call Jane creates a group >> called downsized and adds the Blue Team along with other groups. How would >> a person on the Blue team know that they are now a part of the downsized >> group as well? >> >> Thanks in advance for the answers folks! >> >> Sincerely, >> Steve >> These don't feel like optimal solutions to me, but I thought I'd pose the >> questions >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> > > -- > Matt Warnock, President > RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090315/21f1cf28/attachment.html From bms at mscis.org Mon Mar 16 10:11:56 2009 From: bms at mscis.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Mon Mar 16 09:37:35 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Wireless access problem Message-ID: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> I'm trying to connect my OpenSuse 11.1 laptop to a SonicWall SonicPoint WPA 802.3afPoE compliant router. The first week (2 weeks ago), I tried several times, typing the fairly long password thinking I got the password wrong. After several attempts, by some fluke, I got connected. The second week (last week) I attempted to connect several times, never messing with the saved password since it hasn't changed, and it could not connect. The logs never even showed my attempts to connect. Now I'm back again, and it shows my attempts to connect in the Sonicwall router logs: Authentication from [myMAC] on radio #1 at SonicPoint 20d6ac Most of the time, that's the only relevant entry in the logs. Once, and only once, I also got an error in the Sonicwall router logs when I attempted to connect: MIC Failure from [myMAC] on radio #1 at SonicPoint 20d6ac Here are some entries from my laptop's /var/log/messages: Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: direct probe to AP [mac] try 1 Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0 direct probe responded Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: authenticate with AP [mac] Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: authenticated Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: associate with AP [mac] Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: RX ReassocResp from [mac] (capab=0x11 status=0 aid=14) Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: associated Mar 16 10:56:43 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: deauthenticated that repeats several times, and once in a while, after the line that says 'associated' there's a line that says 'disassociating by local choice (reason=3)', but not every time. Any ideas? Brandon From marc at sllug.org Mon Mar 16 15:03:23 2009 From: marc at sllug.org (Marc Christensen) Date: Mon Mar 16 14:29:17 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: SLLUG meeting: Wed. March 18, 2009: Parrot Message-ID: <49BECCAB.40108@sllug.org> This month's meeting will be presented on Parrot by Stephen Weeks: Parrot is a virtual machine for dynamic languages and a very nice set of compiler tools. I'll be walking through the steps of implementing a compiler for Parrot from the ground up, using scheme as an example. >From the Parrot web site: "Parrot is a virtual machine designed to efficiently compile and execute bytecode for dynamic languages. Parrot currently hosts a variety of language implementations in various stages of completion, including Tcl, Javascript, Ruby, Lua, Scheme, PHP, Python, Perl 6, APL, and a .NET bytecode translator. Parrot is not about parrots, though we are rather fond of them for obvious reasons." http://www.parrot.org/ It seems that a class may have room 101 scheduled this semester so we may meet in 103 which is just across the hall from 101. Time/Date: ---------- Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:10pm p.m. Place: ---------- Room 101 or 103 in Lower Warnock Engineering Building Directions/Parking: Directions - [http://www.map.utah.edu/index.jsp?find=62] Parking can be found just East of the WEB building and there is a big lot just North of the Merrill Engineering building (MEB). Parking is free after 6:00 (Based on the signs posted. Always check in case this changes.) Special thanks go to: - U of U for providing the meeting room. - Various Volunteers -- Marc Christensen http://www.sllug.org From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 17:20:44 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Mon Mar 16 16:46:22 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Wireless access problem In-Reply-To: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> References: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903161720g5ca909c0jbd1a98066635ec3b@mail.gmail.com> What is the method the wireless connection is using in SuSE? And what I mean by that is, ndiswrapper, LinuxAnt DriverLoader, etc... Thanks, Justin On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Brandon Stout wrote: > I'm trying to connect my OpenSuse 11.1 laptop to a SonicWall SonicPoint WPA > 802.3afPoE compliant router. ?The first week (2 weeks ago), I tried several > times, typing the fairly long password thinking I got the password wrong. > ?After several attempts, by some fluke, I got connected. ?The second week > (last week) I attempted to connect several times, never messing with the > saved password since it hasn't changed, and it could not connect. ?The logs > never even showed my attempts to connect. ?Now I'm back again, and it shows > my attempts to connect in the Sonicwall router logs: > > Authentication from [myMAC] on radio #1 at SonicPoint 20d6ac > > Most of the time, that's the only relevant entry in the logs. ?Once, and > only once, I also got an error in the Sonicwall router logs when I attempted > to connect: > > MIC Failure from [myMAC] on radio #1 at SonicPoint 20d6ac > > Here are some entries from my laptop's /var/log/messages: > > Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: direct probe to AP [mac] try 1 > Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0 direct probe responded > Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: authenticate with AP [mac] > Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: authenticated > Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: associate with AP [mac] > Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: RX ReassocResp from [mac] > (capab=0x11 status=0 aid=14) > Mar 16 10:56:39 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: associated > Mar 16 10:56:43 linux-laptop kernel: wlan0: deauthenticated > > that repeats several times, and once in a while, after the line that says > 'associated' there's a line that says 'disassociating by local choice > (reason=3)', but not every time. > > Any ideas? > > Brandon > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From bms at mscis.org Mon Mar 16 20:12:56 2009 From: bms at mscis.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Mon Mar 16 19:40:05 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Wireless access problem In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903161720g5ca909c0jbd1a98066635ec3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> <2f932a4a0903161720g5ca909c0jbd1a98066635ec3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49BF1538.8040003@mscis.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > What is the method the wireless connection is using in SuSE? > > And what I mean by that is, ndiswrapper, LinuxAnt DriverLoader, etc... > > Thanks, > > Justin I tried in multiple desktop environments, including KDE 4.2x, and Gnome using the system notification area icon. I'm not sure what it's using in the background. I used WPA personal. In Gnome it's Network Manager Applet 0.7.0. In KDE 4.2x it is Knetwork Manager. I finally got connected once, and when I did, I was logged into Gnome. The time I connected 2 weeks ago it was in KDE 4.2x, so I'm not sure if it's one of the tools over another yet. Brandon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkm/FTgACgkQx0pgn74qrcIY1ACgtrA4/p8EZJ/CHFAGiKulsKZW /xYAn2B9aWrUv5gHE/LRoj5hI3Rmc9X/ =YGds -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 20:38:00 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Mon Mar 16 20:03:36 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Wireless access problem In-Reply-To: <49BF1538.8040003@mscis.org> References: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> <2f932a4a0903161720g5ca909c0jbd1a98066635ec3b@mail.gmail.com> <49BF1538.8040003@mscis.org> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903162038q3825c587k2d7cb1ca7f565206@mail.gmail.com> What it sounds like, based on your description, you need to clear the WPA passphrase from the .conf file for however the card is configured. Both Network Manager, and kWifiManager have conf files in /etc. Clear out the value, and then reconnect to your WAP. You may also want to clear out the entries for the laptop in your SonicWall router. It may have a previous entry associated to the MAC address in some kind of client table on the device. After entries are cleared on both the laptop and the router, reconnect, and add the correct WPA(2) passphrase, and authentication should go through successfully. Thanks, Justin On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Brandon Stout wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > >> What is the method the wireless connection is using in SuSE? >> >> And what I mean by that is, ndiswrapper, LinuxAnt DriverLoader, etc... >> >> Thanks, >> >> Justin > > I tried in multiple desktop environments, including KDE 4.2x, and Gnome > using the system notification area icon. ?I'm not sure what it's using > in the background. ?I used WPA personal. ?In Gnome it's Network Manager > Applet 0.7.0. ?In KDE 4.2x it is Knetwork Manager. ?I finally got > connected once, and when I did, I was logged into Gnome. ?The time I > connected 2 weeks ago it was in KDE 4.2x, so I'm not sure if it's one of > the tools over another yet. > > Brandon > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAkm/FTgACgkQx0pgn74qrcIY1ACgtrA4/p8EZJ/CHFAGiKulsKZW > /xYAn2B9aWrUv5gHE/LRoj5hI3Rmc9X/ > =YGds > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From marc at mecworks.com Mon Mar 16 22:05:24 2009 From: marc at mecworks.com (Marc Christensen) Date: Mon Mar 16 21:31:01 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: SLLUG and twitter Message-ID: <49BF2F94.1000603@mecworks.com> Hey, if any of you use twitter and mention SLLUG, make sure you use #SLLUG to make your tweets searchable: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23SLLUG -- Marc Christensen http://blog.mecworks.com From ryan at vucci.com Tue Mar 17 11:18:02 2009 From: ryan at vucci.com (Ryan Bonnett) Date: Tue Mar 17 10:43:46 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: UVUG Kickoff Event Message-ID: Hello SLLUG Members, All of you are invited to the UVUG (Utah Virtualization Users Group) kickoff event this Monday, March 23rd at the McKay Events Center at 6:00 pm. Enjoy a free dinner, short keynote address on the future of virtualization, prizes, and then Utah Valley Thunder's (professional indoor football team) first home game for free. To get your free VIP pass to the kickoff event & Thunder's first home game, send an email with the following to corey@vucci.com: Your name - Your email address - Company you work for - Your title - If you'd like to have your family join you for the game, let Corey know (he can get free tickets for your family). This should be a lot of fun. Thanks, Ryan About UVUG The Utah Virtualization Users Group is dedicated to virtualization in the IT space. Our goal is to provide opportunities for education, knowledge transfer, training, discussions, demonstrations, and networking. As a local users group, we physically meet monthly and have an online discussion forum for IT professionals interested in all things virtualization (server & storage virtualization, cloud computing, virtual desktops, going green, network & software virtualization, and more). www.vucci.com/uvug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090317/2415466b/attachment.htm From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 21:06:25 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Tue Mar 17 20:32:04 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Wireless access problem In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903162038q3825c587k2d7cb1ca7f565206@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> <2f932a4a0903161720g5ca909c0jbd1a98066635ec3b@mail.gmail.com> <49BF1538.8040003@mscis.org> <2f932a4a0903162038q3825c587k2d7cb1ca7f565206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903172106y64db9629hd6f5c058632d25e4@mail.gmail.com> Just wanted to see if you had any luck getting that connection to work on your laptop and WAP. It's been a while since I've used SuSE, since I'm more of a Ubuntu fan overall (can't get enough of apt LOL), but the conf files should be the same for the most part, regardless of the distro. Thanks, Justin On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > What it sounds like, based on your description, you need to clear the > WPA passphrase from the .conf file for however the card is configured. > Both Network Manager, and kWifiManager have conf files in /etc. Clear > out the value, and then reconnect to your WAP. > > You may also want to clear out the entries for the laptop in your > SonicWall router. It may have a previous entry associated to the MAC > address in some kind of client table on the device. > > After entries are cleared on both the laptop and the router, > reconnect, and add the correct WPA(2) passphrase, and authentication > should go through successfully. > > Thanks, > > Justin > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Brandon Stout wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: >> >>> What is the method the wireless connection is using in SuSE? >>> >>> And what I mean by that is, ndiswrapper, LinuxAnt DriverLoader, etc... >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Justin >> >> I tried in multiple desktop environments, including KDE 4.2x, and Gnome >> using the system notification area icon. ?I'm not sure what it's using >> in the background. ?I used WPA personal. ?In Gnome it's Network Manager >> Applet 0.7.0. ?In KDE 4.2x it is Knetwork Manager. ?I finally got >> connected once, and when I did, I was logged into Gnome. ?The time I >> connected 2 weeks ago it was in KDE 4.2x, so I'm not sure if it's one of >> the tools over another yet. >> >> Brandon >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org >> >> iEYEARECAAYFAkm/FTgACgkQx0pgn74qrcIY1ACgtrA4/p8EZJ/CHFAGiKulsKZW >> /xYAn2B9aWrUv5gHE/LRoj5hI3Rmc9X/ >> =YGds >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> > From bms at mscis.org Wed Mar 18 08:26:56 2009 From: bms at mscis.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Wed Mar 18 07:54:07 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Wireless access problem In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903172106y64db9629hd6f5c058632d25e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> <2f932a4a0903161720g5ca909c0jbd1a98066635ec3b@mail.gmail.com> <49BF1538.8040003@mscis.org> <2f932a4a0903162038q3825c587k2d7cb1ca7f565206@mail.gmail.com> <2f932a4a0903172106y64db9629hd6f5c058632d25e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C112C0.8000409@mscis.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > Just wanted to see if you had any luck getting that connection to work > on your laptop and WAP. Thank you for following up. I'll be back in that office on Monday, so I'll be testing it then. I'm keeping this thread in my inbox until I get a chance to try it out, and I'll post a follow up then. Brandon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknBEsAACgkQx0pgn74qrcKtigCfeXfBxIBZIiEnCRyoZR/CR51R JDoAnRtJ1AQHIOAKhK+6ApcYmaioFssf =++jA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From marc at sllug.org Wed Mar 18 10:16:47 2009 From: marc at sllug.org (Marc Christensen) Date: Wed Mar 18 09:42:43 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Reminder: SLLUG meeting tonight (Wed. March 18, 2009): Parrot 1.0 Message-ID: <49C12C7F.7090304@sllug.org> Just a reminder of the meeting tonight. Details can be found on the SLLUG web site here: http://sllug.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=125 Hope to see you all there! -- Marc Christensen http://www.sllug.org From marc at sllug.org Fri Mar 20 09:07:02 2009 From: marc at sllug.org (Marc Christensen) Date: Fri Mar 20 08:32:49 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: SLLUG outtage: virtualization P2V migration Message-ID: <49C3BF26.6000408@sllug.org> Hi everyone, You may have noticed some down time with sllug.org over the last day or so. I'm in the process of moving sllug.org my new virtual machine server rather than have it run on its own standalone machine. There will probably be a few more outages as I work out the kinks in the process and get everything moved over to the new server. There are several reasons for this move: * Cheaper cost for me by running several machines on one physical machine (SLLUG is running at my home, 4 of my 5 machines which run 24/7 will be virtualized) * Easier to backup, restore, maintain * Easier to upgrade to new OS or migrate services * Increased performance (the new virt server is much more powerful than the machine that sllug.org is currently running on) * Easy to migrate sllug.org to a new home if/when that happens (although the new home will also have to be a virt machine server) Hardware: --------- A lot of time and thought went into spec'ing out a machine that could handle my virtualization requirements. It needs to handle a minimum of 4 machines: mecworks.com, a mythtv server, an asterisk server and SLLUG.org with the addition of more machines for migration and testing and other servers on internal and external networks. As I've talked with others about the project, there has been a lot of interest in the hardware configuration that I decided on. The motherboard needed to have support for Intel Core i7 processor (8 effective cores and excellent virtualization support in hardware), standard PCI slots for a cheap graphics card, my asterisk telephony card and an eSATA connection for an external 1.5TB storage array dedicated to the mythtv server. Here are the main components: * EVGA 132-BL-E758-TR LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Motherboard * 12GB (6 x 2GB) OCZ Platinum 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Triple Channel Memory (Model OCZ3P1600LV6GK) * Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor w/Hyperthreading (8 effective cores) * 4 Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 32MB cache Hard Drive * iStarUSA BPU-340SATA 3x5.25" to 4x3.5" SATA2.0 Hot-Swap Backplane Raid Cage In the BIOS, I enabled SATA AHCI mode. AHCI stands for Advanced Host Controller Interface. It enables advanced SATA features like Native Command Queuing (NCQ) and hot-plugging, however, it's not the default on most motherboards. Software: --------- The OS installed on the server is openSUSE 11.1 x86_64. After evaluating VMware workstation, VMWare server, VMware ESXi, Xen and KVM, I decided that KVM will be my virtualization platform. As noted above, the storage is made up of 4 1TB drives in a raid 5 array which gives 2.7TB of usable storage dedicated to virtual machine disk image storage and backup of which the SLLUG server will be using only 50GB for it's image and two times that for backup copies. KVM was chosen for the following reasons: * OpenSource * Part of the standard kernel and ships in all current Linux distros * Highly performant on selected hardware (Intel VT-d) * Supports all 8 effective CPU cores * Supports paravirtualization on both 32 and 64bit guest OSes * Allows direct access to block devices (i.e. my mythtv's LVM storage) * Supports PCI passthhrough (needed for Asterisk card) * libvirt support provides potential management access by various tools * Supports CPU frequency scaling which saves on electricity (Xen currently does not do this and during tests, ran all cores at full speed constantly) I hope to have the migration done either this weekend or sometime next week. -- Marc Christensen http://blog.mecworks.com From ahmet at thebluezone.com Sat Mar 21 01:09:36 2009 From: ahmet at thebluezone.com (Ahmet B Basagalar) Date: Sat Mar 21 00:35:28 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: NMS Recommendation In-Reply-To: <200903201902.n2KJ22KP011083@sllug.org> References: <200903201902.n2KJ22KP011083@sllug.org> Message-ID: <58E6644F863B46BEAD7111244E85EFC2@ahmetlaptop> Hi all, We are in need of a good web-based Network Management System that has full SNMP support. Preferably we want it to be an open source project. We have looked into OpenNMS, but it does not support SNMP Set. I would appreciate if anybody has a recommendation. Thanks, Ahmet From remo at italy1.com Sat Mar 21 07:40:18 2009 From: remo at italy1.com (Remo Mattei) Date: Sat Mar 21 07:06:02 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: NMS Recommendation In-Reply-To: <58E6644F863B46BEAD7111244E85EFC2@ahmetlaptop> References: <200903201902.n2KJ22KP011083@sllug.org> <58E6644F863B46BEAD7111244E85EFC2@ahmetlaptop> Message-ID: I think openview is one of them Ciao Inviato da iPhone Il giorno 21/mar/09, alle ore 02:09, "Ahmet B Basagalar" ha scritto: > Hi all, > > We are in need of a good web-based Network Management System that > has full SNMP support. Preferably we want it to be an open source > project. We have looked into OpenNMS, but it does not support SNMP > Set. I would appreciate if anybody has a recommendation. > > Thanks, > Ahmet > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > !DSPAM:49c4a1d0323697606517538! > From sllug at fungusmovies.com Sat Mar 21 08:07:00 2009 From: sllug at fungusmovies.com (Lonnie Olson) Date: Sat Mar 21 10:42:39 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: NMS Recommendation In-Reply-To: <58E6644F863B46BEAD7111244E85EFC2@ahmetlaptop> References: <200903201902.n2KJ22KP011083@sllug.org> <58E6644F863B46BEAD7111244E85EFC2@ahmetlaptop> Message-ID: <8bcade370903210807u79af3458ya506adca886e01dc@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Ahmet B Basagalar wrote: > Hi all, > > We are in need of a good web-based Network Management System that has full > SNMP support. Preferably we want it to be an open source project. We have > looked into OpenNMS, but it does not support SNMP Set. I would appreciate if > anybody has a recommendation. I haven't found any single project sufficient for my network managment system. I use a combination of two tools to handle it. Nagios: Service/Host polling as well as event and notification management. This tool is extremely customizable, and easy to do so. This makes it simple to monitor nearly every aspect of your network. Cacti: Data collection and graphs. Again, extremely customizable to the point you can collect nearly any data about your network you need. It supports collecting any kind of data via SNMP, as well as can be extended to collect data from any other method you can script. --lonnie From eggyknap at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 11:36:28 2009 From: eggyknap at gmail.com (Joshua Tolley) Date: Sat Mar 21 11:02:10 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: NMS Recommendation In-Reply-To: <8bcade370903210807u79af3458ya506adca886e01dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903201902.n2KJ22KP011083@sllug.org> <58E6644F863B46BEAD7111244E85EFC2@ahmetlaptop> <8bcade370903210807u79af3458ya506adca886e01dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090321183627.GF6840@eddie> On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 09:07:00AM -0600, Lonnie Olson wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Ahmet B Basagalar > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > We are in need of a good web-based Network Management System that has full > > SNMP support. Preferably we want it to be an open source project. We have > > looked into OpenNMS, but it does not support SNMP Set. I would appreciate if > > anybody has a recommendation. > > I haven't found any single project sufficient for my network managment > system. I use a combination of two tools to handle it. > > Nagios: Service/Host polling as well as event and notification > management. This tool is extremely customizable, and easy to do so. > This makes it simple to monitor nearly every aspect of your network. One client I work with uses this (http://www.pnp4nagios.org/pnp/start) to allow nagios to draw graphs like Cacti does. I don't do much nagios stuff for them, and don't know what it takes to make this add-on work. Cacti appears more flexible, but perhaps that's flexibility you won't need. I've also used nagios + cacti, and various ad-hoc monitoring scripts, with a fair bit of success. - Josh / eggyknap -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090321/ae0f15fa/attachment.pgp From dtbeattie at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 10:27:22 2009 From: dtbeattie at gmail.com (Daren Beattie) Date: Sun Mar 22 11:00:17 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Invitation to connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1841797845.1276165.1237742842448.JavaMail.app@ech3-cdn11.prod> LinkedIn ------------ Salt, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Daren Learn more: https://www.linkedin.com/e/isd/528046051/5TrhUIeF/ ------------------------------------------ What is LinkedIn and why should you join? http://learn.linkedin.com/what-is-linkedin ------ (c) 2009, LinkedIn Corporation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090322/ef66cdf1/attachment.html From jfolsom at scl.utah.edu Mon Mar 23 07:07:11 2009 From: jfolsom at scl.utah.edu (Jeff Folsom) Date: Mon Mar 23 07:06:40 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: NMS Recommendation In-Reply-To: <8bcade370903210807u79af3458ya506adca886e01dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903201902.n2KJ22KP011083@sllug.org> <58E6644F863B46BEAD7111244E85EFC2@ahmetlaptop> <8bcade370903210807u79af3458ya506adca886e01dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C7978F.2010608@scl.utah.edu> Lonnie Olson wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Ahmet B Basagalar > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> We are in need of a good web-based Network Management System that has full >> SNMP support. Preferably we want it to be an open source project. We have >> looked into OpenNMS, but it does not support SNMP Set. I would appreciate if >> anybody has a recommendation. >> > > I haven't found any single project sufficient for my network managment > system. I use a combination of two tools to handle it. > > Nagios: Service/Host polling as well as event and notification > management. This tool is extremely customizable, and easy to do so. > This makes it simple to monitor nearly every aspect of your network. > > Cacti: Data collection and graphs. Again, extremely customizable to > the point you can collect nearly any data about your network you need. > It supports collecting any kind of data via SNMP, as well as can be > extended to collect data from any other method you can script. > > --lonnie > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > Groundwork Monitor Open Source utilizes Nagios and Cacti, as well as a number of others, and packages it all together for you. It's really quite nice in my experience. (www.groundworkopensource.com) -Jeff From bms at flfn.org Wed Mar 18 08:09:32 2009 From: bms at flfn.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Mon Mar 23 17:17:24 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Wireless access problem In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903172106y64db9629hd6f5c058632d25e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> <2f932a4a0903161720g5ca909c0jbd1a98066635ec3b@mail.gmail.com> <49BF1538.8040003@mscis.org> <2f932a4a0903162038q3825c587k2d7cb1ca7f565206@mail.gmail.com> <2f932a4a0903172106y64db9629hd6f5c058632d25e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C10EAC.4020803@flfn.org> Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > Just wanted to see if you had any luck getting that connection to work > on your laptop and WAP. Thank you for following up. I'll be back in that office on Monday, so I'll be testing it then. I'm keeping this thread in my inbox until I get a chance to try it out, and I'll post a follow up then. Brandon From bms at flfn.org Mon Mar 23 09:35:21 2009 From: bms at flfn.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Mon Mar 23 17:17:24 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Wireless access problem In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903162038q3825c587k2d7cb1ca7f565206@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> <2f932a4a0903161720g5ca909c0jbd1a98066635ec3b@mail.gmail.com> <49BF1538.8040003@mscis.org> <2f932a4a0903162038q3825c587k2d7cb1ca7f565206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C7BA49.1030304@flfn.org> Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > What it sounds like, based on your description, you need to clear the > WPA passphrase from the .conf file for however the card is configured. > Both Network Manager, and kWifiManager have conf files in /etc. Clear > out the value, and then reconnect to your WAP. > > You may also want to clear out the entries for the laptop in your > SonicWall router. It may have a previous entry associated to the MAC > address in some kind of client table on the device. > > After entries are cleared on both the laptop and the router, > reconnect, and add the correct WPA(2) passphrase, and authentication > should go through successfully. > > Thanks, > > Justin I returned to the office with this SonicWall router today, and the issue seems partly resolved, though I didn't take these steps. Today, I tried only a couple times to connect in KDE 4 with knetwork Manager and could not connect. I switched to Gnome and connected the first try with Network Manager Applet. I repeated this, and every time I try in Gnome now, I connect first try. Originally I had a hard time connecting in any desktop environment, but now I can connect every time in Gnome, even though Network Manager Applet is still the same version. I have had several security updates in the past week. Perhaps one of those updates resolved a system issue, but I hesitate to make that conclusion without researching all the updates and what they entailed, or without something conclusive in the log files. Now it appears there's only an issue with kNetwork Manager on KDE 4.2x. I haven't tried it on KDE 3. Anyway, thank you for helping me troubleshoot this issue. I wish I had more information so I could report what the resolution was for the original issue. At least I can report an apparent bug in kNetwork Manager on KDE 4. Brandon From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 17:49:19 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Mon Mar 23 17:49:22 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Wireless access problem In-Reply-To: <49C7BA49.1030304@flfn.org> References: <200903161711.n2GHBudZ055088@stouthosting.com> <2f932a4a0903161720g5ca909c0jbd1a98066635ec3b@mail.gmail.com> <49BF1538.8040003@mscis.org> <2f932a4a0903162038q3825c587k2d7cb1ca7f565206@mail.gmail.com> <49C7BA49.1030304@flfn.org> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903231749wbbec557l4ce8e726393dbab2@mail.gmail.com> Awesome, glad its fixed. Wireless in Windows, Linux, or Mac for that matter can get tricky. I've spend plenty of endless hours fixing wireless connection issues in SuSE, Ubuntu, Fedora, and Mandrake(now lamely called Mandriva... Connectiva just had to ruin it... :P). It could have been an update that fixed it for sure. I was glad I could at least help you explore the different options to look at to get it resolved. Just reply again down the road if it starts going haywire again... :) Thanks, Justin On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Brandon Stout wrote: > Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > >> What it sounds like, based on your description, you need to clear the >> WPA passphrase from the .conf file for however the card is configured. >> Both Network Manager, and kWifiManager have conf files in /etc. Clear >> out the value, and then reconnect to your WAP. >> >> You may also want to clear out the entries for the laptop in your >> SonicWall router. It may have a previous entry associated to the MAC >> address in some kind of client table on the device. >> >> After entries are cleared on both the laptop and the router, >> reconnect, and add the correct WPA(2) passphrase, and authentication >> should go through successfully. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Justin > > I returned to the office with this SonicWall router today, and the issue > seems partly resolved, though I didn't take these steps. ?Today, I tried > only a couple times to connect in KDE 4 with knetwork Manager and could > not connect. ?I switched to Gnome and connected the first try with > Network Manager Applet. ?I repeated this, and every time I try in Gnome > now, I connect first try. ?Originally I had a hard time connecting in > any desktop environment, but now I can connect every time in Gnome, even > though ?Network Manager Applet is still the same version. ?I have had > several security updates in the past week. ?Perhaps one of those updates > resolved a system issue, but I hesitate to make that conclusion without > researching all the updates and what they entailed, or without something > conclusive in the log files. ?Now it appears there's only an issue with > kNetwork Manager on KDE 4.2x. ?I haven't tried it on KDE 3. > > Anyway, thank you for helping me troubleshoot this issue. ?I wish I had > more information so I could report what the resolution was for the > original issue. ?At least I can report an apparent bug in kNetwork > Manager on KDE 4. > > Brandon > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From herlo1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 21:36:59 2009 From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage) Date: Tue Mar 24 21:37:03 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: SLLUG Daytime SIG Meeting - Cooking with PAM - April 8 @ 11:30am Message-ID: Hi all, It's time to announce April's presentation, it's looking to be great. Cooking with PAM Thad Van Ry will cover the basics of Pluggable Authentication Modules (PAM). If you're a Sys Admin who wants to know how PAM can help you or hurt you, this meeting is for you. Thad will go over the different stacks available as well as how to call modules and their control flags. Thad is a Linux System Administrator for the LDS Church. He has been using Linux in his work life for the past 12+ years. =============================================== We meet in conference room A on the lower level of the Salt Lake Library has been reserved. Head down the stairs, make a left turn. The conference room is directly under the foyer area (the area with all the shops on the 1st level) If you aren?t clear, ask the information desk. A map is available of all floor plans of the library[1]. Also, our meetings should be posted on the Electric Signs by the entrance to the library on the first floor. Cheers, Clint 1 - http://www.slcpl.lib.ut.us/details.jsp?parent_id=5&page_id=91 From fyyht at punchcutter.ml1.net Thu Mar 26 18:43:53 2009 From: fyyht at punchcutter.ml1.net (David J Iannucci) Date: Thu Mar 26 18:44:14 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PCMCIA to USB adaptor Message-ID: <1238118233.26696.1307547955@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi, I'm thinking the best option to resurrect an old laptop whose BIOS can boot from PCMCIA but not USB is to get a PCMCIA->USB adaptor card. When I look on amazon and ebay, it seems there are no major brands making these things - they're all generic, back-alley manufacturer....looking. Can anyone recommend a brand known to work well with Linux? And if you have such a one but no need for it and would like to sell for a reasonable price, by all means, let me know. Incidentally..... if anyone knows a reason why I shouldn't expect a 10-year-old BIOS to boot from a USB CD hooked up to such a card, even though it appears to be able to boot from PCMCIA, please let me know that too! Thanks in advance, Dave From kmahan at xmission.com Thu Mar 26 19:06:21 2009 From: kmahan at xmission.com (Kurt Mahan) Date: Thu Mar 26 19:05:53 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PCMCIA to USB adaptor In-Reply-To: <1238118233.26696.1307547955@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1238118233.26696.1307547955@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <49CC349D.1030701@xmission.com> I'm not sure that will work for you. You should probably google around for the specific laptop brand and confirm it. "Boot from PCMCIA" used to mean "Boot from an IDE/CF drive interfaced via PCMCIA." --Kurt David J Iannucci wrote: > Hi, > > I'm thinking the best option to resurrect an old laptop whose BIOS can > boot from PCMCIA but not USB is to get a PCMCIA->USB adaptor card. When > I look on amazon and ebay, it seems there are no major brands making > these things - they're all generic, back-alley manufacturer....looking. > > Can anyone recommend a brand known to work well with Linux? And if you > have such a one but no need for it and would like to sell for a > reasonable price, by all means, let me know. > > Incidentally..... if anyone knows a reason why I shouldn't expect a > 10-year-old BIOS to boot from a USB CD hooked up to such a card, > even though it appears to be able to boot from PCMCIA, please let me > know that too! > > Thanks in advance, > Dave > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From zspecialk at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 08:39:01 2009 From: zspecialk at gmail.com (Scott K) Date: Fri Mar 27 08:39:11 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PCMCIA to USB adaptor In-Reply-To: <49CC349D.1030701@xmission.com> References: <1238118233.26696.1307547955@webmail.messagingengine.com> <49CC349D.1030701@xmission.com> Message-ID: <90cf3c3d0903270839kae800f1h42a8167eb54a98d@mail.gmail.com> What about a PXE/netboot installation? I can't say I've done it myself, since I had my friend do a Xubuntu install for me on an old laptop with a bad CD player. It should be faster install than CD and USB 1.1. Of course it my take a check in your BIOS to verify that it supports PXE or netbooting I supported an old line of dells once which had PXE booting as an option after off, and on that was "on+PXE" such that you never would have guessed that the option was there. Since PXE was announced in 1999, your specific device may be out of luck. Scott >> Can anyone recommend a brand known to work well with Linux? ?And if you >> have such a one but no need for it and would like to sell for a >> reasonable price, by all means, let me know. >> >> Incidentally..... if anyone knows a reason why I shouldn't expect a >> 10-year-old BIOS to boot from a USB CD hooked up to such a card, >> even though it appears to be able to boot from PCMCIA, please let me >> know that too! From i_am_nitrogen at hotmail.com Fri Mar 27 16:34:27 2009 From: i_am_nitrogen at hotmail.com (Mike Bourgeous) Date: Fri Mar 27 16:34:35 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: PCMCIA to USB adaptor In-Reply-To: <1238118233.26696.1307547955@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1238118233.26696.1307547955@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: > From: fyyht@punchcutter.ml1.net > To: sllug-members@sllug.org > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:43:53 -0600 > Subject: [sllug-members]: PCMCIA to USB adaptor > > Hi, > > I'm thinking the best option to resurrect an old laptop whose BIOS can > boot from PCMCIA but not USB is to get a PCMCIA->USB adaptor card. When > I look on amazon and ebay, it seems there are no major brands making > these things - they're all generic, back-alley manufacturer....looking. > > Can anyone recommend a brand known to work well with Linux? And if you > have such a one but no need for it and would like to sell for a > reasonable price, by all means, let me know. > > Incidentally..... if anyone knows a reason why I shouldn't expect a > 10-year-old BIOS to boot from a USB CD hooked up to such a card, > even though it appears to be able to boot from PCMCIA, please let me > know that too! > > Thanks in advance, > Dave I just bought a PCMCIA (actually Cardbus) USB 2.0 adapter for my old Sony laptop to hook up multiple USB sound cards. It turns out my PCMCIA port is toast though, unfortunately. Since Cardbus is basically just PCI, these are just EHCI adapters, so they all (or mostly all) work out of the box with Linux. However, that also means that your BIOS probably won't boot from it. If your laptop has a floppy drive, you can make a network boot disk with etherboot. Mike _________________________________________________________________ Internet Explorer 8 ? Get your Hotmail Accelerated. Download free! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/141323790/direct/01/ From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 17:22:06 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Fri Mar 27 17:22:09 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Anyone got a spare copy of Linspire? Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903271722n7e8cddbagc1fca746e36323c6@mail.gmail.com> Hey Guys, Was wondering if anyone had a spare Linspire ISO/license they weren't using... I am writing up a bunch of different tutorial videos on Linux, and the various distros, and I wanted to cover both Linspire and FreeSpire. I never really messed with either of them much at all before, even when LinSpire was Lindows (which is lame that Microsoft won that lawsuit, but anyway ;) ). I have played with Freespire a little, but wanted to show a difference between the two in a video, in which I'll just have both installed and loaded in a VM, however I also want to go through the install process so those who are not so familiar with OS installs in general, can easily make their way through the installer... I went to Linspire.com, and I guess Xandros bought them out... go figure, lol. At least Freespire is still called Freespire. Anyhow, just wanted to see if anyone had a copy they weren't using I could get to go over the distros. Thanks, Justin From bms at mscis.org Fri Mar 27 18:01:55 2009 From: bms at mscis.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Fri Mar 27 18:03:32 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Anyone got a spare copy of Linspire? In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903271722n7e8cddbagc1fca746e36323c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f932a4a0903271722n7e8cddbagc1fca746e36323c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49CD7703.3000500@mscis.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > Hey Guys, > > Was wondering if anyone had a spare Linspire ISO/license they weren't using... > > I am writing up a bunch of different tutorial videos on Linux, and the > various distros, and I wanted to cover both Linspire and FreeSpire. I > never really messed with either of them much at all before, even when > LinSpire was Lindows (which is lame that Microsoft won that lawsuit, > but anyway ;) ). I have played with Freespire a little, but wanted to > show a difference between the two in a video, in which I'll just have > both installed and loaded in a VM, however I also want to go through > the install process so those who are not so familiar with OS installs > in general, can easily make their way through the installer... > > I went to Linspire.com, and I guess Xandros bought them out... go > figure, lol. At least Freespire is still called Freespire. > > Anyhow, just wanted to see if anyone had a copy they weren't using I > could get to go over the distros. > > Thanks, > > Justin Microsoft did not win a lawsuit. Lindows actually settled with Microsoft. Tom Welch talked about this during his presentation in the first Utah Open Source convention. In fact, if I remember right, Lindows won, then they settled with Microsoft. Just FYI. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknNdwMACgkQx0pgn74qrcKYgACgvCQBMxCyT1UfQtq2QxkCavGE OUQAoJBcBbTQvxhsuwJRVtcJFBeyQq0W =Nihs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 18:13:56 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Fri Mar 27 18:14:00 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Anyone got a spare copy of Linspire? In-Reply-To: <49CD7703.3000500@mscis.org> References: <2f932a4a0903271722n7e8cddbagc1fca746e36323c6@mail.gmail.com> <49CD7703.3000500@mscis.org> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903271813o11a78decxe85da7b5dd1c5bae@mail.gmail.com> Ah gotcha. I always thought they won in the US, but then Microsoft kept whining about it, so it got taken to overseas courts in Europe, and Microsoft won that, so they settled with Microsoft, so they didn't have to deal with calling it one thing in the US, and other in Europe or other areas of the world. I may have understood that wrong though... Thanks for the FYI though... :) On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 7:01 PM, Brandon Stout wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: >> Hey Guys, >> >> Was wondering if anyone had a spare Linspire ISO/license they weren't using... >> >> I am writing up a bunch of different tutorial videos on Linux, and the >> various distros, and I wanted to cover both Linspire and FreeSpire. I >> never really messed with either of them much at all before, even when >> LinSpire was Lindows (which is lame that Microsoft won that lawsuit, >> but anyway ;) ). I have played with Freespire a little, but wanted to >> show a difference between the two in a video, in which I'll just have >> both installed and loaded in a VM, however I also want to go through >> the install process so those who are not so familiar with OS installs >> in general, can easily make their way through the installer... >> >> I went to Linspire.com, and I guess Xandros bought them out... go >> figure, lol. At least Freespire is still called Freespire. >> >> Anyhow, just wanted to see if anyone had a copy they weren't using I >> could get to go over the distros. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Justin > > Microsoft did not win a lawsuit. ?Lindows actually settled with > Microsoft. ?Tom Welch talked about this during his presentation in the > first Utah Open Source convention. ?In fact, if I remember right, > Lindows won, then they settled with Microsoft. > > Just FYI. > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAknNdwMACgkQx0pgn74qrcKYgACgvCQBMxCyT1UfQtq2QxkCavGE > OUQAoJBcBbTQvxhsuwJRVtcJFBeyQq0W > =Nihs > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From bms at flfn.org Fri Mar 27 18:01:27 2009 From: bms at flfn.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Sat Mar 28 10:02:45 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Anyone got a spare copy of Linspire? In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903271722n7e8cddbagc1fca746e36323c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f932a4a0903271722n7e8cddbagc1fca746e36323c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49CD76E7.7060308@flfn.org> Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > Hey Guys, > > Was wondering if anyone had a spare Linspire ISO/license they weren't using... > > I am writing up a bunch of different tutorial videos on Linux, and the > various distros, and I wanted to cover both Linspire and FreeSpire. I > never really messed with either of them much at all before, even when > LinSpire was Lindows (which is lame that Microsoft won that lawsuit, > but anyway ;) ). I have played with Freespire a little, but wanted to > show a difference between the two in a video, in which I'll just have > both installed and loaded in a VM, however I also want to go through > the install process so those who are not so familiar with OS installs > in general, can easily make their way through the installer... > > I went to Linspire.com, and I guess Xandros bought them out... go > figure, lol. At least Freespire is still called Freespire. > > Anyhow, just wanted to see if anyone had a copy they weren't using I > could get to go over the distros. > > Thanks, > > Justin Microsoft did not win a lawsuit. Lindows actually settled with Microsoft. Tom Welch talked about this during his presentation in the first Utah Open Source convention. In fact, if I remember right, Lindows won, then they settled with Microsoft. Just FYI. From dave at thesmithfam.org Sat Mar 28 12:41:13 2009 From: dave at thesmithfam.org (Dave Smith) Date: Sat Mar 28 12:41:33 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Free computer Message-ID: <8C9DA389-E2D4-4374-AEE1-6167EB1F0815@thesmithfam.org> I have an oldish home-built computer that is looking for a good home. Specs: Asus A7N266-VM motherboard (on board video, LAN, and sound) 512MB RAM AMD 2000 Athlon XP CPU (I think) Case and power supply No hard drive. It worked the last time I booted it a few months ago, and it served as my primary family computer for several years prior to that. First one to come pick it up in Murray gets it. Email me off list for my address. --Dave From dragen at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 12:47:19 2009 From: dragen at gmail.com (Adam Barrett) Date: Sat Mar 28 12:47:33 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Free computer In-Reply-To: <8C9DA389-E2D4-4374-AEE1-6167EB1F0815@thesmithfam.org> References: <8C9DA389-E2D4-4374-AEE1-6167EB1F0815@thesmithfam.org> Message-ID: <6902ba8e0903281247s20447da5m9fe3dbb698679df5@mail.gmail.com> Address? On Mar 28, 2009 1:45 PM, "Dave Smith" wrote: I have an oldish home-built computer that is looking for a good home. Specs: Asus A7N266-VM motherboard (on board video, LAN, and sound) 512MB RAM AMD 2000 Athlon XP CPU (I think) Case and power supply No hard drive. It worked the last time I booted it a few months ago, and it served as my primary family computer for several years prior to that. First one to come pick it up in Murray gets it. Email me off list for my address. --Dave ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090328/7f7c2d1d/attachment.html From u235sentinel at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 15:01:01 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Sat Mar 28 15:01:09 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Linspire vs Lindows?(was: Anyone got a spare copy of Linspire?) In-Reply-To: <49CD76E7.7060308@flfn.org> References: <2f932a4a0903271722n7e8cddbagc1fca746e36323c6@mail.gmail.com> <49CD76E7.7060308@flfn.org> Message-ID: <49CE9E1D.4040307@gmail.com> I've never understood that. Why win then change their name anyway? BTW, I did hear that Micro$oft won the lawsuit but now that I think about it, I think it was someone who told me that and not from any article I read. Anyway, Why use Wintendo when you can run WINE and get more software options than what Micro$oft can offer. My kids love playing Oblivion under Ubuntu now. The graphics are stunning! Brandon Stout wrote: > > > Microsoft did not win a lawsuit. Lindows actually settled with > Microsoft. Tom Welch talked about this during his presentation in the > first Utah Open Source convention. In fact, if I remember right, > Lindows won, then they settled with Microsoft. > > Just FYI. > From dave at thesmithfam.org Sun Mar 29 19:32:35 2009 From: dave at thesmithfam.org (Dave Smith) Date: Sun Mar 29 19:32:38 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Free computer In-Reply-To: <8C9DA389-E2D4-4374-AEE1-6167EB1F0815@thesmithfam.org> References: <8C9DA389-E2D4-4374-AEE1-6167EB1F0815@thesmithfam.org> Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Dave Smith wrote: > I have an oldish home-built computer that is looking for a good home. The computer has been taken. --Dave From sdmorrey at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 07:14:07 2009 From: sdmorrey at gmail.com (Steven Morrey) Date: Mon Mar 30 07:14:16 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook Message-ID: Hi Everyone, It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. Any feedback is appreciated. Sincerely, Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/717c9607/attachment.htm From remo at italy1.com Mon Mar 30 07:24:26 2009 From: remo at italy1.com (Remo Mattei) Date: Mon Mar 30 07:24:32 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Get a macbook it will do what u want My 2 cents Remo Inviato da iPhone Il giorno 30/mar/2009, alle ore 08.14, Steven Morrey ha scritto: > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do > some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a > developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, > etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro > on it. > I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other > debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. > Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on > it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky > to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation > has changed since last i checked. > Any feedback is appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Steve > !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! From thatch45 at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 07:37:11 2009 From: thatch45 at gmail.com (Thomas S Hatch) Date: Mon Mar 30 07:37:18 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6172c17e0903300737h54de27a0pce3846e5da213ab3@mail.gmail.com> Well, I got a Sager laptop last year from xoticpc.com, and have LOVED it. It cost a little less, is very solid, and I could buy it without an OS! It has by far been the best laptop I have ever owned, solid as a rock, and I took it everywhere with my old job, traveling 2-3 times a month. -Tom Hatch On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Remo Mattei wrote: > Get a macbook it will do what u want > > My 2 cents > Remo > > Inviato da iPhone > > Il giorno 30/mar/2009, alle ore 08.14, Steven Morrey > ha scritto: > > Hi Everyone, >> >> It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some >> homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. >> Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and >> do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. >> I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) >> all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. >> I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian >> variant out of the box with out a lot of work. >> Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it >> under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support >> this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since >> last i checked. >> Any feedback is appreciated. >> >> Sincerely, >> Steve >> !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> >> >> !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! >> > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/1dcaff94/attachment.html From namonai at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 07:39:39 2009 From: namonai at gmail.com (Craig Kelley) Date: Mon Mar 30 07:39:47 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <847993120903300739g39e1c789i113e70a9d446deab@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Remo Mattei wrote: > Get a macbook ?it will do what u want I despise the keyboard on the new MacBooks; especially for programming. I own three Apple laptops, so it's not ideological -- I just hate the PC Jr. calculator-style "chicklet" keys. Then again, I also spent $100 on a Unicomp IBM Modlel-M 101 clone for work. :-) I'd go down to the Apple store and try one out before committing. I recently bought a Dell MIni9 (which I wouldn't use for coding either), and have been impressed with their Linux support. Everything works. I ordered it with Ubuntu. -Craig -- http://inconnu.islug.org/~ink finger ink@inconnu.islug.org for PGP block From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 08:04:23 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 08:04:26 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1238425463.3930.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 08:14 -0600, Steven Morrey wrote: > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer > and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, > etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro > on it. You forgot to mention "integrated fingerprint reader". Trust me, you'll thank me later. You also didn't mention a WUXGA (1920x1200) screen, or better. As far as I'm concerned, it's the _only_ way to fly. I really wanted to recommend a ThinkPad, but it looks like Lenovo no longer sells the stunningly perfect T61p. In fact, the the current T-series kinda suck. The W-series look nice, but include more of a premium. How sad. :-( -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From richard at esplins.org Mon Mar 30 08:02:25 2009 From: richard at esplins.org (Richard Esplin) Date: Mon Mar 30 08:07:58 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200903300902.25499.richard-lists@esplins.org> I love my Thinkpad. My Lenovo T61 came preinstalled with SuSE. I put Ubuntu on it, and it has worked great. I heard that Lenove isn't preinstalling Linux any more, but the machines work great. There is a good community of T61 linux users (http://thinkwiki.org). VirtualBox works great. Hibernate and suspend are reliable out of the box, as is the wireless. With a little bit of tweaking, all the media buttons work. The bluetooth and wireless lights worked once I installed linux-backports-modules-hardy-generic. Though I don't play WoW, I have no complaints about the Intel graphics card. It does Compiz, PlanetPenguin, and DVD playback just fine. Highly recommended. Richard On Monday 30 March 2009 08:14:07 Steven Morrey wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and > do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all > working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. > I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian > variant out of the box with out a lot of work. > Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it > under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to > support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed > since last i checked. > Any feedback is appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Steve From rusty.keele at yahoo.com Mon Mar 30 08:42:41 2009 From: rusty.keele at yahoo.com (Rusty Keele) Date: Mon Mar 30 08:42:49 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <294751.47721.qm@web58104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Steven Morrey To: sllug-members@sllug.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 8:14:07 AM Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook Hi Everyone, It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. Any feedback is appreciated. Sincerely, Steve ----------- Hey, I bought a new System 76 Darter Ultra laptop last fall and I have been very happy with it. It comes with Ubuntu pre-installed, and System 76 provides their own hardware drivers too. It is a 64 bit dual core laptop, and bluetooth, wifi and acpi all worked flawlessly out of the box. I do a lot of web development so I run a copy of Windows XP on VirtualBox so I can use Windows for the very few things that I need it for and that has worked very nicely for me. I haven't used wine on it, so I can't comment on that part of your requirements, but it works great for everything else you mentioned - and it has an integrate fingerprint reader. If you are interested I would be happy to answer any of your questions about it - just contact me off-list. Here is their web site: http://system76.com/ Good luck, -Rusty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/2741c2a7/attachment-0001.htm From sdcope at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 08:52:13 2009 From: sdcope at gmail.com (Sean Cope) Date: Mon Mar 30 08:52:37 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: <294751.47721.qm@web58104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <294751.47721.qm@web58104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6fa84a30903300852i5df00311gd8a75dd89ab666ea@mail.gmail.com> Steve, My only recommendation is to take a close look at the sound chip. I've been using xUbuntu on a Toshiba Satellite u205 for the better part of seven months. Alsa and OSS seem to have a strong disliking of the ICH7-9 chips. It took several re compiles and reconfiguring to get sound to partially work. Just a heads up. Sean 2009/3/30 Rusty Keele > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Steven Morrey > *To:* sllug-members@sllug.org > *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2009 8:14:07 AM > *Subject:* [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook > > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and > do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all > working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. > I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian > variant out of the box with out a lot of work. > Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it > under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support > this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since > last i checked. > Any feedback is appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Steve > > ----------- > > Hey, > > I bought a new System 76 Darter Ultra laptop last fall and I have been > very happy with it. It comes with Ubuntu pre-installed, and System 76 > provides their own hardware drivers too. It is a 64 bit dual core laptop, > and bluetooth, wifi and acpi all worked flawlessly out of the box. I do a > lot of web development so I run a copy of Windows XP on VirtualBox so I can > use Windows for the very few things that I need it for and that has worked > very nicely for me. I haven't used wine on it, so I can't comment on that > part of your requirements, but it works great for everything else you > mentioned - and it has an integrate fingerprint reader. If you are > interested I would be happy to answer any of your questions about it - just > contact me off-list. > > Here is their web site: http://system76.com/ > > Good luck, > -Rusty > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/404e1ee2/attachment.html From fozz at xmission.com Mon Mar 30 09:00:42 2009 From: fozz at xmission.com (Doran L. Barton) Date: Mon Mar 30 09:00:49 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200903301000.42856.fozz@xmission.com> On Monday 30 March 2009 08:14:07 Steven Morrey wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. I've been pretty dang impressed with my Dell Latitude D830N. The N is for Open Source (not sure why "N"). It means I got it with no OS installed and a FreeDOS CD in the box. I've got this baby configured with NVidia Quadro NVS 140M graphics w/ 256MB video RAM, Intel Core Duo @ 2.5Ghz, 2GB RAM (could go 4GB), 160GB hard drive with drop-sensor, DVD writer, 15.4-inch 1920x1200 display, Intel 3945 A/B/G wireless. It has both PCMCIA and Expresscard slots (which I have yet to use), IEEE 1394 port, and 3 external USB ports. My battery life has been good - over 2 hours under normal usage. You can remove the optical drive and pack in an additional battery in the media bay if you want more juice than the regular battery provides. I've been fine with what the regular battery provides so far. The hardware runs Fedora 10 almost flawlessly. This laptop, as configured, cost me about $1600 about 4 months ago. -- Doran L. Barton Open-source developer, sysadmin, consultant, and all-around geeky dude "War dims hope for peace" -- Headline seen in newspaper . From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 09:08:45 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 09:08:50 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: <200903301000.42856.fozz@xmission.com> References: <200903301000.42856.fozz@xmission.com> Message-ID: <1238429325.3596.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 10:00 -0600, Doran L. Barton wrote: > Intel 3945 A/B/G wireless I strongly recommend Intel wireless. Unlike some wireless manufacturers, Intel provides official Linux drivers that have been accepted in the vanilla kernel. No out-of-tree headaches, no NDIS evilness. If anybody has heard me complain about my wireless, ignore everything I said. Turns out it was a crappy access point at work, not the Intel drivers. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From stevehildebrand757 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 30 09:46:04 2009 From: stevehildebrand757 at yahoo.com (Steve Hildebrand) Date: Mon Mar 30 09:46:13 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: sllug-members Digest, Vol 55, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: <200903301544.n2UFi56a025553@sllug.org> References: <200903301544.n2UFi56a025553@sllug.org> Message-ID: <174546.63216.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello! Looking for some general SATA tips, if anyone has them. Gigabyte motherboard, Athlon 9950 black, 4gb memory, Ubuntu 8.10: The DVD isn't reading correctly, it seems to think blank dvds are cds, and the hard drive won't show up correctly. Nautilus lists it as an unmounted SCSI device, but it won't mount, and the computer won't boot from the dvd anymore, either, so I can't install Ubuntu AMD64. I set it to AHCI mode instead of IDE emulation in BIOS, but it wasn't working before, either. BIOS recognizes them both, and the DVD will read dvds, just not write to them. It can burn CDs no problem. Thanks in advance! ________________________________ From: "sllug-members-request@sllug.org" To: sllug-members@sllug.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:44:06 AM Subject: sllug-members Digest, Vol 55, Issue 34 Send sllug-members mailing list submissions to sllug-members@sllug.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sllug-members-request@sllug.org You can reach the person managing the list at sllug-members-owner@sllug.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of sllug-members digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Free computer (Dave Smith) 2. Recommendations for a Notebook (Steven Morrey) 3. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Remo Mattei) 4. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Thomas S Hatch) 5. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Craig Kelley) 6. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Stuart Jansen) 7. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Richard Esplin) 8. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Rusty Keele) -----Inline Message Follows----- On Mar 28, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Dave Smith wrote: > I have an oldish home-built computer that is looking for a good home. The computer has been taken. --Dave -----Inline Message Follows----- Hi Everyone, It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. Any feedback is appreciated. Sincerely, Steve -----Inline Message Follows----- Get a macbook it will do what u want My 2 cents Remo Inviato da iPhone Il giorno 30/mar/2009, alle ore 08.14, Steven Morrey ha scritto: > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. > I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. > Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. > Any feedback is appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Steve > !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! -----Inline Message Follows----- Well, I got a Sager laptop last year from xoticpc.com, and have LOVED it. It cost a little less, is very solid, and I could buy it without an OS! It has by far been the best laptop I have ever owned, solid as a rock, and I took it everywhere with my old job, traveling 2-3 times a month. -Tom Hatch On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Remo Mattei wrote: Get a macbook it will do what u want My 2 cents Remo Inviato da iPhone Il giorno 30/mar/2009, alle ore 08.14, Steven Morrey ha scritto: Hi Everyone, It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. Any feedback is appreciated. Sincerely, Steve !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members -----Inline Message Follows----- On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Remo Mattei wrote: > Get a macbook it will do what u want I despise the keyboard on the new MacBooks; especially for programming. I own three Apple laptops, so it's not ideological -- I just hate the PC Jr. calculator-style "chicklet" keys. Then again, I also spent $100 on a Unicomp IBM Modlel-M 101 clone for work. :-) I'd go down to the Apple store and try one out before committing. I recently bought a Dell MIni9 (which I wouldn't use for coding either), and have been impressed with their Linux support. Everything works. I ordered it with Ubuntu. -Craig -- http://inconnu.islug.org/~ink finger ink@inconnu.islug.org for PGP block -----Inline Message Follows----- On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 08:14 -0600, Steven Morrey wrote: > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer > and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, > etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro > on it. You forgot to mention "integrated fingerprint reader". Trust me, you'll thank me later. You also didn't mention a WUXGA (1920x1200) screen, or better. As far as I'm concerned, it's the _only_ way to fly. I really wanted to recommend a ThinkPad, but it looks like Lenovo no longer sells the stunningly perfect T61p. In fact, the the current T-series kinda suck. The W-series look nice, but include more of a premium. How sad. :-( -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden -----Inline Message Follows----- I love my Thinkpad. My Lenovo T61 came preinstalled with SuSE. I put Ubuntu on it, and it has worked great. I heard that Lenove isn't preinstalling Linux any more, but the machines work great. There is a good community of T61 linux users (http://thinkwiki.org). VirtualBox works great. Hibernate and suspend are reliable out of the box, as is the wireless. With a little bit of tweaking, all the media buttons work. The bluetooth and wireless lights worked once I installed linux-backports-modules-hardy-generic. Though I don't play WoW, I have no complaints about the Intel graphics card. It does Compiz, PlanetPenguin, and DVD playback just fine. Highly recommended. Richard On Monday 30 March 2009 08:14:07 Steven Morrey wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and > do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all > working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. > I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian > variant out of the box with out a lot of work. > Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it > under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to > support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed > since last i checked. > Any feedback is appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Steve -----Inline Message Follows----- ________________________________ From: Steven Morrey To: sllug-members@sllug.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 8:14:07 AM Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook Hi Everyone, It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. Any feedback is appreciated. Sincerely, Steve ----------- Hey, I bought a new System 76 Darter Ultra laptop last fall and I have been very happy with it. It comes with Ubuntu pre-installed, and System 76 provides their own hardware drivers too. It is a 64 bit dual core laptop, and bluetooth, wifi and acpi all worked flawlessly out of the box. I do a lot of web development so I run a copy of Windows XP on VirtualBox so I can use Windows for the very few things that I need it for and that has worked very nicely for me. I haven't used wine on it, so I can't comment on that part of your requirements, but it works great for everything else you mentioned - and it has an integrate fingerprint reader. If you are interested I would be happy to answer any of your questions about it - just contact me off-list. Here is their web site: http://system76.com/ Good luck, -Rusty ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/68acd84e/attachment-0001.htm From rhlaw_ca at yahoo.com Mon Mar 30 10:15:07 2009 From: rhlaw_ca at yahoo.com (Robert Law) Date: Mon Mar 30 10:15:35 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: sllug-members Digest, Vol 55, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: <200903301544.n2UFi6Fl025558@sllug.org> References: <200903301544.n2UFi6Fl025558@sllug.org> Message-ID: <202059.20748.qm@web111316.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am running Ubuntu on a Sony Vaio that works great. ________________________________ From: "sllug-members-request@sllug.org" To: sllug-members@sllug.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:44:08 AM Subject: sllug-members Digest, Vol 55, Issue 34 Send sllug-members mailing list submissions to sllug-members@sllug.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sllug-members-request@sllug.org You can reach the person managing the list at sllug-members-owner@sllug.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of sllug-members digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Free computer (Dave Smith) 2. Recommendations for a Notebook (Steven Morrey) 3. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Remo Mattei) 4. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Thomas S Hatch) 5. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Craig Kelley) 6. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Stuart Jansen) 7. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Richard Esplin) 8. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Rusty Keele) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:32:35 -0600 From: Dave Smith Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Free computer To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Mar 28, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Dave Smith wrote: > I have an oldish home-built computer that is looking for a good home. The computer has been taken. --Dave ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:14:07 -0600 From: Steven Morrey Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: sllug-members@sllug.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Everyone, It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. Any feedback is appreciated. Sincerely, Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/717c9607/attachment.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:24:26 -0600 From: Remo Mattei Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Get a macbook it will do what u want My 2 cents Remo Inviato da iPhone Il giorno 30/mar/2009, alle ore 08.14, Steven Morrey ha scritto: > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do > some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a > developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, > etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro > on it. > I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other > debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. > Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on > it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky > to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation > has changed since last i checked. > Any feedback is appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Steve > !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:37:11 -0600 From: Thomas S Hatch Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Message-ID: <6172c17e0903300737h54de27a0pce3846e5da213ab3@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, I got a Sager laptop last year from xoticpc.com, and have LOVED it. It cost a little less, is very solid, and I could buy it without an OS! It has by far been the best laptop I have ever owned, solid as a rock, and I took it everywhere with my old job, traveling 2-3 times a month. -Tom Hatch On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Remo Mattei wrote: > Get a macbook it will do what u want > > My 2 cents > Remo > > Inviato da iPhone > > Il giorno 30/mar/2009, alle ore 08.14, Steven Morrey > ha scritto: > > Hi Everyone, >> >> It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some >> homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. >> Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and >> do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. >> I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) >> all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. >> I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian >> variant out of the box with out a lot of work. >> Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it >> under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support >> this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since >> last i checked. >> Any feedback is appreciated. >> >> Sincerely, >> Steve >> !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> >> >> !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! >> > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/1dcaff94/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:39:39 -0600 From: Craig Kelley Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Message-ID: <847993120903300739g39e1c789i113e70a9d446deab@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Remo Mattei wrote: > Get a macbook it will do what u want I despise the keyboard on the new MacBooks; especially for programming. I own three Apple laptops, so it's not ideological -- I just hate the PC Jr. calculator-style "chicklet" keys. Then again, I also spent $100 on a Unicomp IBM Modlel-M 101 clone for work. :-) I'd go down to the Apple store and try one out before committing. I recently bought a Dell MIni9 (which I wouldn't use for coding either), and have been impressed with their Linux support. Everything works. I ordered it with Ubuntu. -Craig -- http://inconnu.islug.org/~ink finger ink@inconnu.islug.org for PGP block ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:04:23 -0600 From: Stuart Jansen Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Message-ID: <1238425463.3930.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 08:14 -0600, Steven Morrey wrote: > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer > and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, > etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro > on it. You forgot to mention "integrated fingerprint reader". Trust me, you'll thank me later. You also didn't mention a WUXGA (1920x1200) screen, or better. As far as I'm concerned, it's the _only_ way to fly. I really wanted to recommend a ThinkPad, but it looks like Lenovo no longer sells the stunningly perfect T61p. In fact, the the current T-series kinda suck. The W-series look nice, but include more of a premium. How sad. :-( -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:02:25 -0600 From: Richard Esplin Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Message-ID: <200903300902.25499.richard-lists@esplins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I love my Thinkpad. My Lenovo T61 came preinstalled with SuSE. I put Ubuntu on it, and it has worked great. I heard that Lenove isn't preinstalling Linux any more, but the machines work great. There is a good community of T61 linux users (http://thinkwiki.org). VirtualBox works great. Hibernate and suspend are reliable out of the box, as is the wireless. With a little bit of tweaking, all the media buttons work. The bluetooth and wireless lights worked once I installed linux-backports-modules-hardy-generic. Though I don't play WoW, I have no complaints about the Intel graphics card. It does Compiz, PlanetPenguin, and DVD playback just fine. Highly recommended. Richard On Monday 30 March 2009 08:14:07 Steven Morrey wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and > do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all > working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. > I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian > variant out of the box with out a lot of work. > Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it > under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to > support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed > since last i checked. > Any feedback is appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Steve ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Rusty Keele Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Message-ID: <294751.47721.qm@web58104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ________________________________ From: Steven Morrey To: sllug-members@sllug.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 8:14:07 AM Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook Hi Everyone, It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. Any feedback is appreciated. Sincerely, Steve ----------- Hey, I bought a new System 76 Darter Ultra laptop last fall and I have been very happy with it. It comes with Ubuntu pre-installed, and System 76 provides their own hardware drivers too. It is a 64 bit dual core laptop, and bluetooth, wifi and acpi all worked flawlessly out of the box. I do a lot of web development so I run a copy of Windows XP on VirtualBox so I can use Windows for the very few things that I need it for and that has worked very nicely for me. I haven't used wine on it, so I can't comment on that part of your requirements, but it works great for everything else you mentioned - and it has an integrate fingerprint reader. If you are interested I would be happy to answer any of your questions about it - just contact me off-list. Here is their web site: http://system76.com/ Good luck, -Rusty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/2741c2a7/attachment.htm ------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members End of sllug-members Digest, Vol 55, Issue 34 ********************************************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/9995bb8f/attachment-0001.html From kdog_1914 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 30 10:22:37 2009 From: kdog_1914 at hotmail.com (S K ) Date: Mon Mar 30 10:22:49 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: sllug-members Digest, Vol 55, Issue 34 Message-ID: Agreed. My vaio works great with ubuntu. Albeit its three years old. Intel wifi included Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Robert Law Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:15:07 To: Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: sllug-members Digest, Vol 55, Issue 34 I am running Ubuntu on a Sony Vaio that works great. ---------------- From: "sllug-members-request@sllug.org" To: sllug-members@sllug.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:44:08 AM Subject: sllug-members Digest, Vol 55, Issue 34 Send sllug-members mailing list submissions to ??? sllug-members@sllug.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? sllug-members-request@sllug.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? sllug-members-owner@sllug.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of sllug-members digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Re: Free computer (Dave Smith) ? 2. Recommendations for a Notebook (Steven Morrey) ? 3. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Remo Mattei) ? 4. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Thomas S Hatch) ? 5. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Craig Kelley) ? 6. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Stuart Jansen) ? 7. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Richard Esplin) ? 8. Re: Recommendations for a Notebook (Rusty Keele) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:32:35 -0600 From: Dave Smith > Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Free computer To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Mar 28, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Dave Smith wrote: > I have an oldish home-built computer that is looking for a good home. The computer has been taken. --Dave ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:14:07 -0600 From: Steven Morrey > Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: sllug-members@sllug.org Message-ID: ??? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Everyone, It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. Any feedback is appreciated. Sincerely, Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/717c9607/attachment.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:24:26 -0600 From: Remo Mattei > Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset=us-ascii;??? format=flowed;??? delsp=yes Get a macbook? it will do what u want My 2 cents Remo Inviato da iPhone Il giorno 30/mar/2009, alle ore 08.14, Steven Morrey? > ha scritto: > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do? > some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a? > developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume,? > etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro? > on it. > I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other? > debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. > Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on? > it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky? > to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation? > has changed since last i checked. > Any feedback is appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Steve > !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:37:11 -0600 From: Thomas S Hatch > Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions > Message-ID: ??? <6172c17e0903300737h54de27a0pce3846e5da213ab3@mail.gmail.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, I got a Sager laptop last year from xoticpc.com, and have LOVED it. It cost a little less, is very solid, and I could buy it without an OS!? It has by far been the best laptop I have ever owned, solid as a rock, and I took it everywhere with my old job, traveling 2-3 times a month. -Tom Hatch On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Remo Mattei > wrote: > Get a macbook? it will do what u want > > My 2 cents > Remo > > Inviato da iPhone > > Il giorno 30/mar/2009, alle ore 08.14, Steven Morrey > > ha scritto: > >? Hi Everyone, >> >> It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some >> homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. >> Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and >> do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. >> I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) >> all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. >> I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian >> variant out of the box with out a lot of work. >> Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it >> under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support >> this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since >> last i checked. >> Any feedback is appreciated. >> >> Sincerely, >> Steve >> !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> >> >> !DSPAM:49d0d4b433541527717022! >> > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/1dcaff94/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:39:39 -0600 From: Craig Kelley > Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions > Message-ID: ??? <847993120903300739g39e1c789i113e70a9d446deab@mail.gmail.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Remo Mattei > wrote: > Get a macbook ?it will do what u want I despise the keyboard on the new MacBooks; especially for programming.? I own three Apple laptops, so it's not ideological -- I just hate the PC Jr. calculator-style "chicklet" keys.? Then again, I also spent $100 on a Unicomp IBM Modlel-M 101 clone for work.? :-) I'd go down to the Apple store and try one out before committing. I recently bought a Dell MIni9 (which I wouldn't use for coding either), and have been impressed with their Linux support.? Everything works.? I ordered it with Ubuntu. ? -Craig -- http://inconnu.islug.org/~ink finger ink@inconnu.islug.org for PGP block ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:04:23 -0600 From: Stuart Jansen > Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions > Message-ID: <1238425463.3930.13.camel@localhost.localdomain > Content-Type: text/plain On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 08:14 -0600, Steven Morrey wrote: > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer > and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, > etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro > on it. You forgot to mention "integrated fingerprint reader". Trust me, you'll thank me later. You also didn't mention a WUXGA (1920x1200) screen, or better. As far as I'm concerned, it's the _only_ way to fly. I really wanted to recommend a ThinkPad, but it looks like Lenovo no longer sells the stunningly perfect T61p. In fact, the the current T-series kinda suck. The W-series look nice, but include more of a premium. How sad. :-( -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:02:25 -0600 From: Richard Esplin > Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions > Message-ID: <200903300902.25499.richard-lists@esplins.org > Content-Type: text/plain;? charset="utf-8" I love my Thinkpad. My Lenovo T61 came preinstalled with SuSE. I put Ubuntu on it, and it has worked great. I heard that Lenove isn't preinstalling Linux any more, but the machines work great. There is a good community of T61 linux users (http://thinkwiki.org ). VirtualBox works great. Hibernate and suspend are reliable out of the box, as is the wireless. With a little bit of tweaking, all the media buttons work. The bluetooth and wireless lights worked once I installed linux-backports-modules-hardy-generic. Though I don't play WoW, I have no complaints about the Intel graphics card. It does Compiz, PlanetPenguin, and DVD playback just fine. Highly recommended. Richard On Monday 30 March 2009 08:14:07 Steven Morrey > wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some > homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. > Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and > do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. > I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all > working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. > I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian > variant out of the box with out a lot of work. > Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it > under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to > support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed > since last i checked. > Any feedback is appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Steve ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Rusty Keele > Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions > Message-ID: <294751.47721.qm@web58104.mail.re3.yahoo.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ________________________________ From: Steven Morrey > To: sllug-members@sllug.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 8:14:07 AM Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook Hi Everyone, It's time for me to get a new notebook and I've been trying to do some homework to find out what does and doesn't work out there. Ideally I'd like to find a new 64bit dual core laptop, I'm a developer and do a lot of development on Virtual Machines. I'd like the bluetooth, wifi and acpi (suspend, hibernate, resume, etc) all working either out of the box or as soon as I slap a distro on it. I'd prefer the notebook to be able to run Ubuntu or some other debian variant out of the box with out a lot of work. Also although it's not critical, I'd like to be able to play WoW on it under wine, last I checked the ATI chipset drivers were too flaky to support this, so nVidia would be preffered unless the situation has changed since last i checked. Any feedback is appreciated. Sincerely, Steve ----------- Hey, ? I bought a new System 76 Darter Ultra laptop last fall and I have been very happy with it.? It comes with Ubuntu pre-installed, and System 76 provides their own hardware drivers too.? It is a 64 bit dual core laptop, and bluetooth, wifi and acpi all worked flawlessly out of the box.? I do a lot of web development so I run a copy of Windows XP on VirtualBox so I can use Windows for the very few things that I need it for and that has worked very nicely for me.? I haven't used wine on it, so I can't comment on that part of your requirements, but it works great for everything else you mentioned - and it has an integrate fingerprint reader.? If you are interested I would be happy to answer any of your questions about it - just contact me off-list. ? Here is their web site:? http://system76.com/ Good luck, -Rusty ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/2741c2a7/attachment.htm ------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members End of sllug-members Digest, Vol 55, Issue 34 ********************************************* From sdmorrey at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 10:59:38 2009 From: sdmorrey at gmail.com (Steven Morrey) Date: Mon Mar 30 10:59:42 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: <1238429325.3596.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200903301000.42856.fozz@xmission.com> <1238429325.3596.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: That bit about the intel wifi drivers is pretty vital I'll definitely be watching for that. On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Jansen wrote: > On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 10:00 -0600, Doran L. Barton wrote: > > Intel 3945 A/B/G wireless > > I strongly recommend Intel wireless. Unlike some wireless manufacturers, > Intel provides official Linux drivers that have been accepted in the > vanilla kernel. No out-of-tree headaches, no NDIS evilness. > > If anybody has heard me complain about my wireless, ignore everything I > said. Turns out it was a crappy access point at work, not the Intel > drivers. > > -- > "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't > using enough of it." - Chris Maden > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/e318d1e1/attachment.htm From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 11:33:18 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 11:33:22 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting Message-ID: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? A: No. Q: Should I include quotations after my reply? see also: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/T/top-post.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 835 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/1a0a5435/attachment.pgp From unum at unum5.org Mon Mar 30 11:53:15 2009 From: unum at unum5.org (Kyle Waters) Date: Mon Mar 30 11:53:38 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> Stuart Jansen wrote: > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > The funny thing about this is I seem to mess up non-techies with my replies. I rarely use email with coworkers, so I haven't bothered to train them yet. I'm surprised they haven't picked up the obvious superiority of my system, from the emails of mine they have seen.....maybe I should forward this. Kyle ps It should be legal to shoot outlook users. From james at thelances.net Mon Mar 30 11:57:58 2009 From: james at thelances.net (James Lance) Date: Mon Mar 30 11:58:09 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: EDI help Message-ID: <5105D120-C941-435C-8802-EA4972FEB406@thelances.net> I'm starting a project that will involve EDI. I'm finding that there isn't a lot of useful information for actually implementing an EDI solution. I'd really like to avoid relying on an EDI VAN, so I'm looking for an in house solution. My first stumbling block is the lack of knowledge about how EDI grammers work. From my research I think that I want to go with X12. My next problem is that it is really looking like EDI is a pay-to-play game. I'm not finding a lot of open source solutions out there, at least not much that is alive and has any support. My question is, does anyone out there have EDI experience that I could borrow from? Are there any good books from an implementation perspective? Thanks, James p.s. Sorry for the cross posting. I posted a similar request to PLUG last week, but didn't get much traction. From bms at mscis.org Mon Mar 30 12:51:45 2009 From: bms at mscis.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Mon Mar 30 12:53:26 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> Message-ID: <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I top-post replies to normal people, since they just want the reply up front. Kyle Waters wrote: > Stuart Jansen wrote: > >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > The funny thing about this is I seem to mess up non-techies with my > replies. I rarely use email with coworkers, so I haven't bothered to > train them yet. I'm surprised they haven't picked up the obvious > superiority of my system, from the emails of mine they have > seen.....maybe I should forward this. > > Kyle I bottom-post replies to techie mail lists and to some techie's as well who are not ordinary people. I also usually trim. Non-trimmed bottom-posts sometimes get tedious. Too bad this one isn't long enough to get tedious, so it's not a very good example... Brandon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknRItEACgkQx0pgn74qrcLMoQCgrMSrVqVLtbPhMP5a2xNdYJJH 2eoAni4u5Y0aVAGgZZcxg7JzKZF0283N =dl6Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sinuhe at gnu.org Mon Mar 30 13:06:18 2009 From: sinuhe at gnu.org (D. E. Evans) Date: Mon Mar 30 13:06:30 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:51:45 -0600 <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> Message-ID: I top-post replies to normal people, since they just want the reply up front. This perpetuates the problem and teaches bad manners to "normal people." I don't buy the normal people argument. Normal people need to use computers everyday and should know better. Normal people read top to bottom; quoting a small amount to identify context of a reply is easily recognized by normal people. From sdmorrey at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 13:11:32 2009 From: sdmorrey at gmail.com (Steven Morrey) Date: Mon Mar 30 13:11:36 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:06 PM, D. E. Evans wrote: > I top-post replies to normal people, since they just want the > reply up front. > > This perpetuates the problem and teaches bad manners to "normal > people." I don't buy the normal people argument. Normal people > need to use computers everyday and should know better. Normal > people read top to bottom; quoting a small amount to identify > context of a reply is easily recognized by normal people. > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > This discussion seems oddly familiar. Maybe we can Goodwin it, or possibly switch the topic to vi vs emacs or some other productive use of our collective time and IQs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/8a66b807/attachment.htm From mark.k.spute at L-3com.com Mon Mar 30 13:27:55 2009 From: mark.k.spute at L-3com.com (mark.k.spute@L-3com.com) Date: Mon Mar 30 13:28:19 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain><49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> Message-ID: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F14@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Exactly; Normal people read top to bottom, and if the subject line says "RE: netiquette: top posting" I assume it is in reply to the subject named post. If I want to read that post, I'll scroll down or go find the original. If I have to scroll down through 300 lines of text that I have read 4 times previously just to get to "Yeah, me too," I get a little peeved. Just my opinion. -----Original Message----- From: sllug-members-bounces@sllug.org [mailto:sllug-members-bounces@sllug.org] On Behalf Of D. E. Evans Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:06 PM To: sllug-members@sllug.org Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting I top-post replies to normal people, since they just want the reply up front. This perpetuates the problem and teaches bad manners to "normal people." I don't buy the normal people argument. Normal people need to use computers everyday and should know better. Normal people read top to bottom; quoting a small amount to identify context of a reply is easily recognized by normal people. ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members From mark.k.spute at L-3com.com Mon Mar 30 13:29:27 2009 From: mark.k.spute at L-3com.com (mark.k.spute@L-3com.com) Date: Mon Mar 30 13:29:38 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain><49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> Message-ID: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F15@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> I'll Goodwin it. Netiquette Nazi's! There. Now can we move on? ________________________________ From: sllug-members-bounces@sllug.org [mailto:sllug-members-bounces@sllug.org] On Behalf Of Steven Morrey Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:12 PM To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:06 PM, D. E. Evans wrote: I top-post replies to normal people, since they just want the reply up front. This perpetuates the problem and teaches bad manners to "normal people." I don't buy the normal people argument. Normal people need to use computers everyday and should know better. Normal people read top to bottom; quoting a small amount to identify context of a reply is easily recognized by normal people. ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members This discussion seems oddly familiar. Maybe we can Goodwin it, or possibly switch the topic to vi vs emacs or some other productive use of our collective time and IQs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/c2d26327/attachment.html From kwalker at kobran.org Mon Mar 30 13:34:13 2009 From: kwalker at kobran.org (Knight Walker) Date: Mon Mar 30 13:34:17 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> Message-ID: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 16:06 -0400, D. E. Evans wrote: > This perpetuates the problem and teaches bad manners to "normal > people." I don't buy the normal people argument. Normal people > need to use computers everyday and should know better. Normal > people read top to bottom; quoting a small amount to identify > context of a reply is easily recognized by normal people. True, but "normal people" also are lazy and use tools like Blackberries and Outlook that either won't let you edit the message you're replying to, or make it difficult and thus cause people to bail out. These tools also ape the Outlook-style of quoting, rather than the old-style that I'm using in this reply. Finally, most modern e-mail readers load the e-mail message into a buffer and display that buffer from the top, leading people to read blog-style (newest at the top). It annoys me too, but I grew up in the age of BBSes where top-posting would likely cause your reply to get skipped as it scrolled off the top of the page. -KW From kwalker at kobran.org Mon Mar 30 13:35:26 2009 From: kwalker at kobran.org (Knight Walker) Date: Mon Mar 30 13:35:28 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F14@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F14@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Message-ID: <1238445326.3392.39.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 14:27 -0600, mark.k.spute@L-3com.com wrote: > Exactly; Normal people read top to bottom, and if the subject line says > "RE: netiquette: top posting" I assume it is in reply to the subject > named post. If I want to read that post, I'll scroll down or go find > the original. > > If I have to scroll down through 300 lines of text that I have read 4 > times previously just to get to "Yeah, me too," I get a little peeved. > > Just my opinion. The same netiquette that governs top-posting also frowns upon excessive quoting. -KW From remo at italy1.com Mon Mar 30 13:36:45 2009 From: remo at italy1.com (Remo Mattei) Date: Mon Mar 30 13:36:50 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> Message-ID: WOW guys.. Get more mail about this topic than anything else.. Remo > From: Knight Walker > Organization: The Kobran Imperium > Reply-To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:34:13 -0600 > To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions > Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting > > On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 16:06 -0400, D. E. Evans wrote: >> This perpetuates the problem and teaches bad manners to "normal >> people." I don't buy the normal people argument. Normal people >> need to use computers everyday and should know better. Normal >> people read top to bottom; quoting a small amount to identify >> context of a reply is easily recognized by normal people. > > True, but "normal people" also are lazy and use tools like Blackberries > and Outlook that either won't let you edit the message you're replying > to, or make it difficult and thus cause people to bail out. These tools > also ape the Outlook-style of quoting, rather than the old-style that > I'm using in this reply. Finally, most modern e-mail readers load the > e-mail message into a buffer and display that buffer from the top, > leading people to read blog-style (newest at the top). > > It annoys me too, but I grew up in the age of BBSes where top-posting > would likely cause your reply to get skipped as it scrolled off the top > of the page. > > -KW > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > !DSPAM:49d12d1923001336712104! > From marc at sllug.org Mon Mar 30 13:48:14 2009 From: marc at sllug.org (Marc Christensen) Date: Mon Mar 30 13:48:29 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: SLLUG virtual machine conversion complete Message-ID: <49D1300E.2010504@sllug.org> Hey all! The transition to KVM happened last week about mid week. We've been running virutalized for about a week now and it looks like it's going smoothly. This change will make sllug.org easier to upgrade, migrate, backup, upgrade, etc. Thanks for your patience! -- Marc Christensen http://www.sllug.org From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 14:00:37 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 14:00:40 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F14@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F14@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Message-ID: <1238446837.3596.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 14:27 -0600, mark.k.spute@L-3com.com wrote: > If I have to scroll down through 300 lines of text that I have read 4 > times previously just to get to "Yeah, me too," I get a little peeved. Your lack of trimming disturbs me. This is not the list you are looking for. Move along. Move along. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 14:01:19 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 14:01:23 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> Message-ID: <1238446879.3596.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 14:11 -0600, Steven Morrey wrote: > This discussion seems oddly familiar. > Maybe we can Goodwin it, or possibly switch the topic to vi vs emacs > or some other productive use of our collective time and IQs Not until you learn to trim your replies. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 14:01:57 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 14:02:00 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F15@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F15@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Message-ID: <1238446917.3596.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 14:29 -0600, mark.k.spute@L-3com.com wrote: > I'll Goodwin it. Netiquette Nazi's! There. Now can we move on? Not until you learn to trim your replies and place comments in a logic location. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From blendmaster1024 at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 14:47:06 2009 From: blendmaster1024 at gmail.com (Christian Horne) Date: Mon Mar 30 14:47:09 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: SLLUG Daytime SIG Meeting - Cooking with PAM - April 8 @ 11:30am In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Clint, i dont know if you realize, but the "under the shops" thing isn't all that specific, and it's easy to forget the room letter, i did, so here is another description: ...head down the stairs, make a 90 DEGREE left turn, and turn NO FARTHER than 90 degrees.... sorry if this is rude, just tht i got confused last time and i'm making sure noone else copys my mistakes. another mistake i made is that.. well, Clint, you said you have the room registered from 9:00? but you showed up at 11:00, when it started [semi-]officially, so if you (not speaking just to Clint anymore) go early, don't bet on anybody being there. thanks for setting this up though, Clint! i had fun last time. On 3/24/09, Clint Savage wrote: > Hi all, > > It's time to announce April's presentation, it's looking to be great. > > Cooking with PAM > > Thad Van Ry will cover the basics of Pluggable Authentication Modules (PAM). > If you're a Sys Admin who wants to know how PAM can help you or hurt > you, this meeting is for you. Thad will go over the different stacks > available as well as how to call modules and their control flags. > > Thad is a Linux System Administrator for the LDS Church. He has been > using Linux in his work life for the past 12+ years. > > =============================================== > > We meet in conference room A on the lower level of the Salt Lake > Library has been reserved. Head down the stairs, make a left turn. > The conference room is directly under the foyer area (the area with > all the shops on the 1st level) If you aren?t clear, ask the > information desk. A map is available of all floor plans of the > library[1]. > > Also, our meetings should be posted on the Electric Signs by the > entrance to the library on the first floor. > > Cheers, > > Clint > > 1 - http://www.slcpl.lib.ut.us/details.jsp?parent_id=5&page_id=91 > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > -- the blendmaster From richard at esplins.org Mon Mar 30 14:48:01 2009 From: richard at esplins.org (Richard Esplin) Date: Mon Mar 30 14:48:09 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200903301548.01383.richard-lists@esplins.org> Have you ever read a blog? Richard On Monday 30 March 2009 12:33:18 Stuart Jansen wrote: > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dragen at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 14:52:33 2009 From: dragen at gmail.com (Adam Barrett) Date: Mon Mar 30 14:52:35 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <200903301548.01383.richard-lists@esplins.org> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200903301548.01383.richard-lists@esplins.org> Message-ID: <6902ba8e0903301452nc82b4d8k4153ad0c8959a5f5@mail.gmail.com> My personal opinion, not that it weighs much in a holy war, is that the newest information should always be on the top, that said, this has been copied to the bottom for those who read on the bottom first. On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Richard Esplin wrote: > Have you ever read a blog? > > Richard > > On Monday 30 March 2009 12:33:18 Stuart Jansen > wrote: > > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > My personal opinion, not that it weighs much in a holy war, is that the newest information should always be on the top, that said, this has been copied to the bottom for those who read on the bottom first. -- Adam Barrett dragen@gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/c51bfa9b/attachment.html From remo at italy1.com Mon Mar 30 14:57:00 2009 From: remo at italy1.com (Remo Mattei) Date: Mon Mar 30 14:57:09 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <6902ba8e0903301452nc82b4d8k4153ad0c8959a5f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with you Adam. Remo From: Adam Barrett Reply-To: Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:52:33 -0600 To: , Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting My personal opinion, not that it weighs much in a holy war, is that the newest information should always be on the top, that said, this has been copied to the bottom for those who read on the bottom first. On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Richard Esplin wrote: > Have you ever read a blog? > > Richard > > On Monday 30 March 2009 12:33:18 Stuart Jansen wrote: >> > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >> > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> > A: Top-posting. >> > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/57847cfa/attachment.htm From peter at mcnabbs.org Mon Mar 30 14:58:16 2009 From: peter at mcnabbs.org (Peter McNabb) Date: Mon Mar 30 14:58:26 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F14@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> References: <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <2B2CEF0E4EE10B449E5D9BB95E6DA0E8096F14@MAIL2.csw.l-3com.com> Message-ID: <20090330215816.GA20077@mcnabbs.org> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 02:27:55PM -0600, mark.k.spute@L-3com.com wrote: > >If I have to scroll down through 300 lines of text that I have read 4 >times previously just to get to "Yeah, me too," I get a little peeved. Choice of mail client can help in this case. Mutt has a "skip-quoted" command (invoked with 'S') that jumps to the next non-quoted section. You can type 'S' repeatedly to find all the new content. -Peter From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 15:02:20 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 15:02:23 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <200903301548.01383.richard-lists@esplins.org> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200903301548.01383.richard-lists@esplins.org> Message-ID: <1238450540.3596.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 15:48 -0600, Richard Esplin wrote: > Have you ever read a blog? You read blogs where comments are added in reverse chronological order above the original blog post? -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 15:03:42 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 15:03:46 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <6902ba8e0903301452nc82b4d8k4153ad0c8959a5f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200903301548.01383.richard-lists@esplins.org> <6902ba8e0903301452nc82b4d8k4153ad0c8959a5f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1238450623.3596.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 15:52 -0600, Adam Barrett wrote: > My personal opinion, not that it weighs much in a holy war, is that > the newest information should always be on the top, that said, this > has been copied to the bottom for those who read on the bottom first. If if you were in the neighborhood of correct, instead of yet another example of Eternal September, your lack of trimming is still incredibly rude. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 15:07:09 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 15:07:12 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1238450829.3596.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 15:57 -0600, Remo Mattei wrote: > I agree with you Adam. The residents of Salem agreed that witches should be burned. Slave owners agreed that blacks were sub-human and needed to be enslaved for their own good. Wall street agreed that home prices would never fall. What's your point? -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From zspecialk at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 15:38:30 2009 From: zspecialk at gmail.com (Scott K) Date: Mon Mar 30 15:38:38 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238450829.3596.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238450829.3596.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <90cf3c3d0903301538ie800662u949a3bc72a221bae@mail.gmail.com> >The residents of Salem agreed that witches should be burned. . . . The beautiful part of this offensive statement sent as a barrage of updates is the sig. >"XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden As much as a couple of you think you're too hip and modern to follow the RFC's the internet is built on, Stuart's philosophy is attached to every email, and I'd prefer compliance to receiving more of them. That said, from among all the Outlook users in my office, sometimes I get mile long conversations dropped in my lap when I'm CC'd and it becomes my problem. It can sometimes be useful to have that whole context in those circumstances. That appears to be acceptable in my office. If you had bothered to read RFC 1855, you would have found that you should follow standard conventions and community standards for email based on your recipient. Trimming and bottom posting when participating in a mailing list is recommended by the RFC and is the accepted historical standard for most LUG lists, including this one. Scott From jshatch at azza.com Mon Mar 30 15:51:53 2009 From: jshatch at azza.com (Jarom Hatch) Date: Mon Mar 30 15:53:46 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <90cf3c3d0903301538ie800662u949a3bc72a221bae@mail.gmail.com> References: <1238450829.3596.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <90cf3c3d0903301538ie800662u949a3bc72a221bae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D14D09.1000703@azza.com> Scott K wrote: > Trimming and bottom posting when participating in a mailing list is > recommended by the RFC and is the accepted historical standard for > most LUG lists, including this one. I don't know how most people who post to lists do it, but generally what I do is on mailing lists and other places that many people read the posts, I follow RFC standards and bottom post / trim. I then sort the folder that my list mail goes into by thread. Easy to manage conversations that way. For personal email I generally reply top post because that's what most of the people that I send to are used to. Finally, if I send an email and the recipient replies bottom-post I reply likewise to him. My ?0.0151679 Jarom -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/8875c73d/signature.pgp From aaron at throckmortons.com Mon Mar 30 13:57:34 2009 From: aaron at throckmortons.com (Aaron) Date: Mon Mar 30 15:57:56 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: References: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> Message-ID: <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> I have to add my 2 cents to this.? I will neither top post, nor bottom post, as nothing I am saying needs a quotation from any previous post. :) It seems there are two camps on this subject (duh!).? But both camps are probably of equal size. I think top posting is common mostly because of email clients that default to top posting (ie:? Outlook).? EVERYBODY top posts where I work.? EVERYBODY uses Outlook.? If you were to bottom post to someone there they wouldn't find your reply - ever. Personally, I like top posting.? I can see what their reply is, and if I need a reference to the conversation it's included below the reply. yes, it's in reverse order, but that is okay because if I need to read it from start to finish I can scroll to the bottom and work my way back up.? Yes, there can be issues with really long emails in there where you have to scroll up to it, then scroll down to read it, back up for the next message, etc.? But I don't run into that very often. The biggest reason I like it:? I have most likely already read all of the previous emails in the conversation, so I don't have to scroll through those to get to the reply.? It's right at the top ready for me. I hate to add to a flame war, but I figure this is my first post ever, anywhere, on this subject.? So I'm allowed.? :) Aaron Throckmorton From noblejames at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 15:59:32 2009 From: noblejames at gmail.com (James Noble) Date: Mon Mar 30 15:59:36 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D14D09.1000703@azza.com> References: <1238450829.3596.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <90cf3c3d0903301538ie800662u949a3bc72a221bae@mail.gmail.com> <49D14D09.1000703@azza.com> Message-ID: > Finally, if I send an email and the recipient replies bottom-post I > reply likewise to him. > > How many conversations are top-posted because both parties are only waiting for the other one to bottom-post? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/54ddce49/attachment.htm From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 16:06:04 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 16:06:07 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette Message-ID: <1238454364.3596.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> Your mother probably taught you not to pick your nose in public, or chew with your mouth open. She probably also taught you cover your mouth when you sneeze, or wash your hands when you use the bathroom. (Hopefully.) That's basic etiquette. It serves two purposes: 1) It makes life better for you. Go ahead, pick your nose. You won't be arrested. But a lot of people will decide you're a moron. 2) It makes life better for others. Go ahead, let that sneeze fly. Spread disease. You won't be arrested. A lot of people will think you're a moron. And if you do it too close to someone's face, you might get punched. But don't let that slow you down. Express yourself. After all, it's a free country. I'm not your mother, but I've got some advice too: When replying to a technical mailing lists, trim the original message. Keep enough of the original to provide context, then add your comments below the context. Doesn't sound hard does it? But for some reason certain people are too arrogant, self-centered or stupid to do it. Sure, other people walk out of the bathroom without washing their hands. Does that mean you should do the same? I know I'm not your mother, but I do care about you. Think of me as that crazy uncle who sits on his front porch at night, with a shotgun, screaming at the neighbor kids. You know, the one who sends you Christmas presents you're both excited and afraid to open. I'm not the only one who thinks you're a lazy moron when don't trim or bottom post. Everyone else is just too polite to say it to your face. Do you really want to go through the rest of you life with a large, scarlet M at to top of every email you send? I didn't think so. (Once you master this simple skill, we'll learn about not hijacking threads. Then we'll learn why no one cares if you decide to take your ball and go home. And if you're extra special good, we might even learn why pretending to be impartial makes you look foolish and arrogant, not wise. But first lets focus on the basics.) -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From tvanry at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 16:12:47 2009 From: tvanry at gmail.com (Thad Van Ry) Date: Mon Mar 30 16:12:50 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette In-Reply-To: <1238454364.3596.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238454364.3596.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <38fc83270903301612l6b8424b7q1599aebaa4c5180@mail.gmail.com> On 3/30/09, Stuart Jansen wrote: > Think of me as that crazy uncle who sits on his front porch at night, > with a shotgun, screaming at the neighbor kids. You know, the one who > sends you Christmas presents you're both excited and afraid to open. Actually, Stuart, that's exactly how I think of you. I even refer to you as my crazy uncle Stuart to my friends. Now where was that Christmas present?? From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 16:16:10 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 16:16:13 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> References: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1238454970.3596.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 14:57 -0600, Aaron wrote: > I think top posting is common mostly because of email clients that > default to top posting (ie: Outlook). EVERYBODY top posts where I > work. EVERYBODY uses Outlook. If you were to bottom post to someone > there they wouldn't find your reply - ever. EVERYBODY uses Windows. EVERYBODY bought McMansions they couldn't afford. EVERYBODY in Utah drives without using their turn signals. Your point? > Personally, I like top posting. Personally I like to fart really loudly in public. It doesn't just provide a satisfying release of pressure, it also makes me the center of attention. I like attention. Hey, EVERYBODY, look at me! Look at me! > The biggest reason I like it: I have most likely already read all of > the previous emails in the conversation, so I don't have to scroll > through those to get to the reply. It's right at the top ready for > me. Why is the concept of trimming so hard to grasp? -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From kd7nyq at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 16:24:51 2009 From: kd7nyq at gmail.com (Andrew Jackman) Date: Mon Mar 30 16:24:53 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <79c119390903301624k6c7b0f8cg572cc97e906235e1@mail.gmail.com> > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > A: No. > Q: Should I include quotations after my reply? Is there a way to configure gmail for pre-posting format? By default, all the messages are displayed in reverse-chronological order. I think quoting is a great idea, which gives the appearance of in-posting. Is in-posting a form of post-posting? How come Uncle Stuart didn't mention anything about replying to the digests? That seems to be a bigger problem than pre-posting. Does anyone actually read the replies to the digests? Jackman. From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 17:15:40 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 17:15:46 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <79c119390903301624k6c7b0f8cg572cc97e906235e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <79c119390903301624k6c7b0f8cg572cc97e906235e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1238458540.3569.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 17:24 -0600, Andrew Jackman wrote: > Is there a way to configure gmail for pre-posting format? By default, > all the messages are displayed in reverse-chronological order. Hopefully someone else will respond to this. I gave up on GMail eons ago because it was too frustrating. > I think quoting is a great idea, which gives the appearance of > in-posting. Is in-posting a form of post-posting? If you mean mixing context and reply, a little here, a little there, then it's a best practice no matter what you call it. > How come Uncle Stuart didn't mention anything about replying to the > digests? That seems to be a bigger problem than pre-posting. Does > anyone actually read the replies to the digests? That's just another example of not trimming. With proper trimming, it should be impossible to recognize a reply-to-digest. Sure, reply-to-digest breaks threading, but so do some poorly written email clients, like Outlook. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From u235sentinel at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:32:31 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Mon Mar 30 17:32:36 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238454970.3596.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> <1238454970.3596.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49D1649F.3050302@gmail.com> Stuart Jansen wrote: > > > Personally I like to fart really loudly in public. It doesn't just > provide a satisfying release of pressure, it also makes me the center of > attention. I like attention. > > Hey, EVERYBODY, look at me! Look at me! > > > I'm running Linux. Look at me :D From fozz at xmission.com Mon Mar 30 17:32:02 2009 From: fozz at xmission.com (Doran L. "Fozz" Barton) Date: Mon Mar 30 17:32:50 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette Message-ID: <200903301832.02432.fozz@xmission.com> On Monday 30 March 2009 17:06:04 Stuart Jansen wrote: > Your mother probably taught you not to pick your nose in public, or chew > with your mouth open. She probably also taught you cover your mouth when > you sneeze, or wash your hands when you use the bathroom. (Hopefully.) Back in the Old Daze (and, yes, Stuart, I'm even OLDER than you), mailing lists had rules- usually in the charter, something you'd receive when you subscribed. The mailing list manager enforced those rules. If you tried to sell things on a list with rules forbidding for-sale postings, you'd be reprimanded by the list manager. If you top-posted when the rules said that was a no-no, you'd get in trouble. Does sllug-members have rules? If not, it should. Otherwise, we're just griping about what the rules SHOULD be. The nice thing about lists with rules is that if you don't like the rules, you can go join another list -- or create one of your own -- that has rules you like. Oh, and griping about the rules should be banned once the rules are in place. -- fozz@iodynamics.com is Doran L. "Fozz" Barton "If you think you've seen everything in Paris, visit the Pere Lachas is Cemetery. It boasts such immortals as Moliere, Jean de la Fontain, and Chopin" -- Seen in a travel guide From fozz at xmission.com Mon Mar 30 17:32:07 2009 From: fozz at xmission.com (Doran L. "Fozz" Barton) Date: Mon Mar 30 17:32:54 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting Message-ID: <200903301832.08071.fozz@xmission.com> On Monday 30 March 2009 16:02:20 Stuart Jansen wrote: > You read blogs where comments are added in reverse chronological order > above the original blog post? Zing. -- fozz@iodynamics.com is Doran L. "Fozz" Barton "Has any part of your body suddenly grown uncontrollable?" -- Seen on a Japanese medical form From fozz at xmission.com Mon Mar 30 17:32:12 2009 From: fozz at xmission.com (Doran L. "Fozz" Barton) Date: Mon Mar 30 17:33:00 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting Message-ID: <200903301832.13118.fozz@xmission.com> On Monday 30 March 2009 14:57:34 Aaron wrote: > It seems there are two camps on this subject (duh!). But both camps > are probably of equal size. [...] > Personally, I like top posting. This is oddly familiar. Maybe it bears certain similarities to many political discussions I get into. One side presents a clearly defined, fact-based, time- tested, logical reason for doing something their way and then the other side says, "But I like doing it my way! And, guess what! Everyone else does it my way too, so THERE! *blows raspberry*" There are many reasons why Outlook is bad and this is one of them (Don't even get me started on Outlooks non-existent IMAP functionality). It's just yet- another way Microsoft has turned computer users into idiots. -- fozz@iodynamics.com is Doran L. "Fozz" Barton "Has any part of your body suddenly grown uncontrollable?" -- Seen on a Japanese medical form From u235sentinel at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:35:08 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Mon Mar 30 17:35:12 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <6902ba8e0903301452nc82b4d8k4153ad0c8959a5f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200903301548.01383.richard-lists@esplins.org> <6902ba8e0903301452nc82b4d8k4153ad0c8959a5f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D1653C.6080002@gmail.com> I usually read the bottom of an email and work my way up. Doesn't everybody ??? ;-) Adam Barrett wrote: > My personal opinion, not that it weighs much in a holy war, is that > the newest information should always be on the top, that said, this > has been copied to the bottom for those who read on the bottom first. > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Richard Esplin > wrote: > > Have you ever read a blog? > > Richard > > On Monday 30 March 2009 12:33:18 Stuart Jansen > > wrote: > > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read > text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net > channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > My personal opinion, not that it weighs much in a holy war, is that > the newest information should always be on the top, that said, this > has been copied to the bottom for those who read on the bottom first. > > -- > Adam Barrett > dragen@gmail.com From u235sentinel at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:44:38 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Mon Mar 30 17:44:41 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette In-Reply-To: <200903301832.02432.fozz@xmission.com> References: <200903301832.02432.fozz@xmission.com> Message-ID: <49D16776.4020005@gmail.com> Doran L. "Fozz" Barton wrote: > Back in the Old Daze (and, yes, Stuart, I'm even OLDER than you), mailing > lists had rules- usually in the charter, something you'd receive when you > subscribed. The mailing list manager enforced those rules. If you tried to > sell things on a list with rules forbidding for-sale postings, you'd be > reprimanded by the list manager. If you top-posted when the rules said that > was a no-no, you'd get in trouble. > > Does sllug-members have rules? If not, it should. Otherwise, we're just > griping about what the rules SHOULD be. The nice thing about lists with rules > is that if you don't like the rules, you can go join another list -- or create > one of your own -- that has rules you like. > > Oh, and griping about the rules should be banned once the rules are in place. > > A very good point. I don't recall seeing such a list of rules. And I subscribe to several lists. They all have different rules :-) From bms at mscis.org Mon Mar 30 19:29:09 2009 From: bms at mscis.org (Brandon Stout) Date: Mon Mar 30 19:30:50 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238458540.3569.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <79c119390903301624k6c7b0f8cg572cc97e906235e1@mail.gmail.com> <1238458540.3569.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49D17FF5.2080106@mscis.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stuart Jansen wrote: > On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 17:24 -0600, Andrew Jackman wrote: > >> Is there a way to configure gmail for pre-posting format? By default, >> all the messages are displayed in reverse-chronological order. > > Hopefully someone else will respond to this. I gave up on GMail eons ago > because it was too frustrating. There's a firefox add-on for this I've heard people mention, but there's an even better solution. Use a mail client, like Thunderbird, and connect to gmail with imap. Then you can use gmail like any other email, and you can even keep your mail on the server. You can also configure it to bottom post or top post your replies. You can also set up 'identities', and set different behaviors for each. Many people I email expect a top post. I use a different email address for them, and it defaults to top-posting. I use this email address for techies and mail lists. It defaults to bottom posts. Both email addresses and more are on the same account. Oh, and just to start another battle (c'mon Aaron Toponce, now's your chance to champion plain text emails), I set the other email address to send html by default and this one to format plain text. Brandon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknRf/UACgkQx0pgn74qrcKENQCeKXuLmXt+PInzIhulSPAGHnQJ sXAAoI0QwVQb1OP+V1S/M+9IOFG8pgZR =z4Uv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com Mon Mar 30 21:19:50 2009 From: mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com (Matt Warnock) Date: Mon Mar 30 21:19:59 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> Message-ID: <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> Maybe I'm bass-ackwards, but I personally PREFER top-posting. I usually remember the subject matter (from the subject line) in a thread I'm following, so just reading the reply first is faster. If I need the context after all, or want to refresh my memory, it's there (but further down). If I want to print the entire back-and-forth context, it's all there in the most recent post. All of this saves me time. Offensive to purist netiquette nazis apparently, but it works for me. Why should I bottom-post just to satisfy someone else's notions of thought order? Does my own time and preference not matter? Or maybe a once-and-for-all netiquette vote was held before I got on the net (in 1992)? If someone could predict with 100% accuracy what I can remember, then a bottom post would be faster-- as long as the top quote was short enough that I could keep it all on the same page. And of course, I don't have to pay by the byte, so I say bottom-quote all you want, within reason, why waste time carefully editing context which may (occasionally) be useful? But to Steven's point, this has been the most intelligent discussion of the topic that I've ever seen. Especially the clever Q & A argument, kudos. (Even if I disagree.) So I appreciate the discussion, anyway. Steven Morrey wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:06 PM, D. E. Evans > wrote: > > I top-post replies to normal people, since they just want the > reply up front. > > This perpetuates the problem and teaches bad manners to "normal > people." I don't buy the normal people argument. Normal people > need to use computers everyday and should know better. Normal > people read top to bottom; quoting a small amount to identify > context of a reply is easily recognized by normal people. > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net > channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > This discussion seems oddly familiar. > Maybe we can Goodwin it, or possibly switch the topic to vi vs emacs or > some other productive use of our collective time and IQs > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members -- Matt Warnock, President RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. From lzirkel at cendev.com Mon Mar 30 21:23:43 2009 From: lzirkel at cendev.com (Louis Zirkel) Date: Mon Mar 30 21:23:51 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D1653C.6080002@gmail.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200903301548.01383.richard-lists@esplins.org> <6902ba8e0903301452nc82b4d8k4153ad0c8959a5f5@mail.gmail.com> <49D1653C.6080002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D19ACF.1040202@cendev.com> u235sentinel wrote: > I usually read the bottom of an email and work my way up. > > Doesn't everybody ??? It is, of course, the most logical way to read. I also prefer reading the last chapter of a novel first and working my way toward the beginning. Saves heaps of time when I get fed up because I know how things end. -- Louis Zirkel / lzirkel@cendev.com From allen.schultz at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:41:07 2009 From: allen.schultz at gmail.com (Allen Schultz) Date: Mon Mar 30 21:41:15 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> Message-ID: <3f34f8420903302141p7caf874bqb9e128d8cc6cb94c@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: > Maybe I'm bass-ackwards, but I personally PREFER top-posting. I feel the same way. I'm tired of reading through paragraphs of previous messages just to get to a reply. But it's a standard (RFC) for all mail/newsgroup postings. -- Allen Schultz From jshatch at azza.com Mon Mar 30 21:43:43 2009 From: jshatch at azza.com (Jarom Hatch) Date: Mon Mar 30 21:43:52 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: References: <1238450829.3596.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <90cf3c3d0903301538ie800662u949a3bc72a221bae@mail.gmail.com> <49D14D09.1000703@azza.com> Message-ID: <49D19F7F.5050007@azza.com> James Noble wrote: > How many conversations are top-posted because both parties are only > waiting for the other one to bottom-post? All too many I'd guess... How many relationships never materialize because both parties are waiting for the other one to ask them out... Personally I don't care which version I read, I just try to cater to what others like. I suppose I could do what was posted earlier and do both at the same time... That wouldn't be annoying at all. :) Jarom -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/55e66221/signature.pgp From kwalker at kobran.org Mon Mar 30 21:53:26 2009 From: kwalker at kobran.org (Knight Walker) Date: Mon Mar 30 21:53:52 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting Message-ID: <1238475206.13292.5.camel@Nokia-N810-43-7> > I feel the same way. I'm tired of reading through paragraphs of > previous messages just to get to a reply. But it's a standard > (RFC) for all mail/newsgroup postings. That's why bottom-posting goes hand-in-hand with trimming the quoted message. Nowadays some people can't be bothered to do anything except spout off with their own opinion and how it's the One True Way. Sorry, I misplaced my irony tags. :) Hey, stop looking at me that way! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090330/65c4ae35/attachment.html From sinuhe at gnu.org Mon Mar 30 22:17:28 2009 From: sinuhe at gnu.org (D. E. Evans) Date: Mon Mar 30 22:17:31 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:29:09 -0600 <49D17FF5.2080106@mscis.org> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <79c119390903301624k6c7b0f8cg572cc97e906235e1@mail.gmail.com> <1238458540.3569.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D17FF5.2080106@mscis.org> Message-ID: I use a different email address for them, and it defaults to top-posting. I use this email address for techies and mail lists. It defaults to bottom posts. In a world where there aren't threads, email or USENET, then I imagine top-posting would not be a big deal, because it wouldn't exist. In that case, why would we need reply buttons/commands? People know how to read and write now (usually); we're in a new era of the darth of computer literacy *and* manners (as Stuart referenced, the September that *never* ends). Oh, and just to start another battle (c'mon Aaron Toponce, Troll! :-P chance to champion plain text emails), I set the other email address to send html by default and this one to format plain text. I'll bite. Aaron and I are of the same opinion on this score (as far as our discussions have shown. Aaron, correct me if I mis-speak). Plain text is the most accessible, which is why plain text (US Ascii in the English world) is better by default. However, I am not against HTML+RichText emails, as long as they are properly MIME (or UU) encoded, *and* you have considered your target recipient as being OK to receive that format, (or requests that format). This is common courtesy, good manners. A mailing list, for instance, is public, therefore there is no suitable reason to *not* send plain text. I imagine there are exceptions, for instance alt.microsoft.outlook.lovers would do great with a default HTML+RichText, with no text alternative, setting. Then again, the text alternative rarely preserves an equivalent formatting of the HTML+RichText original in any MUA I know of; it is not to be relied on. Plus, it's a bunch of meaningless extra content for the plain text recipient (and nasty for mailing lists, especially with digests). Email clients that are still maintained in this century have the capability to differentiate in their address books between HTML+RichText receivers and plain text receivers. Personally, I find plain text easier to format (and I know that what *I* see is what *you* get), and simpler to read (than decoding HTML+RichText, or figuring out broken encodings), but that's another conversation. From sinuhe at gnu.org Mon Mar 30 22:20:16 2009 From: sinuhe at gnu.org (D. E. Evans) Date: Mon Mar 30 22:20:19 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:19:50 -0600 <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> Message-ID: Maybe I'm bass-ackwards, but I personally PREFER top-posting. I usually remember the subject matter (from the subject line) in a thread I'm following, so just reading the reply first is faster. If I need the If "Subject:" is sufficient to identify context, then quoting should not be done at all. Why include useless cruft? From sinuhe at gnu.org Mon Mar 30 22:22:44 2009 From: sinuhe at gnu.org (D. E. Evans) Date: Mon Mar 30 22:22:46 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:41:07 -0600 <3f34f8420903302141p7caf874bqb9e128d8cc6cb94c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> <3f34f8420903302141p7caf874bqb9e128d8cc6cb94c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm tired of reading through paragraphs of previous messages just to get to a reply. This is exactly *why* top-posting is a problem. As Stuart asked (to paraphrase), who did not get the need to use *only* the necessary part of a quotation for context? From namonai at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 22:22:54 2009 From: namonai at gmail.com (Craig Kelley) Date: Mon Mar 30 22:22:57 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <79c119390903301624k6c7b0f8cg572cc97e906235e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <79c119390903301624k6c7b0f8cg572cc97e906235e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <847993120903302222q39ad2cdn89bb7d0ec50a8a78@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Andrew Jackman wrote: > How come Uncle Stuart didn't mention anything about replying to the > digests? ?That seems to be a bigger problem than pre-posting. ?Does > anyone actually read the replies to the digests? Many email clients will allow you to open up the individual MIME-encoded messages in a digest to reply as if it were a standalone email. Assuming, of course, that the list server can/will send them that way. I know Thunderbird and Pine can do that. As for top-posting; I used to hate it when I first encountered it. It was a thing that "AOLers" did. But now I can go either way. They both have benefits, and these aren't the cause of the bandwidth problems that they used to be. No, for that we have to move on to emailing 8MB files of puppies sliding across the floor to everyone in your mailbook -- or to some insane geek that is trying to bypass the firewall by running TCP over SMTP... :-) -- http://inconnu.islug.org/~ink finger ink@inconnu.islug.org for PGP block From mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com Mon Mar 30 22:41:38 2009 From: mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com (Matt Warnock) Date: Mon Mar 30 22:41:48 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <3f34f8420903302141p7caf874bqb9e128d8cc6cb94c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> <3f34f8420903302141p7caf874bqb9e128d8cc6cb94c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D1AD12.80107@ridgecrestherbals.com> Allen Schultz wrote: > I feel the same way. I'm tired of reading through paragraphs of > previous messages just to get to a reply. But it's a standard (RFC) > for all mail/newsgroup postings. And interestingly, this thread was also the first time I heard that RFC 1855 required this. So kudos again to this thread, and I'm sorry if I offended by voicing an opinion that differed from the RFC-- but I still think the RFC is out-of-date in this respect, for the reasons mentioned before. Reading RFC 1855 carefully, it does say that trimming and bottom-posting are good ideas, but more as a suggestion than a mandate, as indeed the Introduction to RFC 1855 (and the relevant section heading "User guidelines") seems to make clear. And I submit the world has changed much (like metered UUCP vs. broadband TCP/IP) since 1995 when it was apparently written. But for Uncle Stuart, I'd also add this quote from Abraham Lincoln: "Who takes offense where none is intended, is a fool. Who takes offense where offense *is* intended, is a bigger fool." Taking offense at the behavior of others (especially behavior as apparently common as top-posting) is rarely either useful to you, or helpful to us. And treating these netiquette "guidelines" as though they were universally obvious and necessary law does seem excessive. :) This harks back to an even older law of computing, Postel's robustness principle: "Be conservative in what you do, and liberal in what you accept from others." (RFC 760) Works for people as well as systems. (And is quoted to that effect in RFC 1855, section 2.1.1, bullet 6.) -- Matt Warnock, President RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. From sjansen at buscaluz.org Mon Mar 30 23:13:36 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Mon Mar 30 23:13:40 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D1AD12.80107@ridgecrestherbals.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> <3f34f8420903302141p7caf874bqb9e128d8cc6cb94c@mail.gmail.com> <49D1AD12.80107@ridgecrestherbals.com> Message-ID: <1238480016.3569.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:41 -0600, Matt Warnock wrote: > This harks back to an even older law of computing, Postel's robustness > principle: "Be conservative in what you do, and liberal in what you > accept from others." (RFC 760) Works for people as well as systems. > (And is quoted to that effect in RFC 1855, section 2.1.1, bullet 6.) I take it you've never had the pleasure of doing significant Web development? Postel's Law has been effectively disproven by empirical evidence. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From alansyoungiii at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 02:34:10 2009 From: alansyoungiii at gmail.com (Alan Young) Date: Tue Mar 31 02:34:33 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: OH FOR THE LOVE OF LINUS STOP ALREADY!!! Message-ID: If you don't stop this incessant arguing I swear I'll pull this mailing list over and you can walk home from here! -- Alan Sent from: Utah United States. From herlo1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 05:26:34 2009 From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage) Date: Tue Mar 31 05:26:38 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: OH FOR THE LOVE OF LINUS STOP ALREADY!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 3:34 AM, Alan Young wrote: > If you don't stop this incessant arguing I swear I'll pull this > mailing list over and you can walk home from here! > -- > Alan > Sent from: ?Utah United States. > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > +1 About every year or so, this discussion has to be held. It's petty and useless, it convinces none and only annoys the rest. Generally, I am mute about this sort of thing, but just quit it! Clint From matthew at azza.com Tue Mar 31 06:18:36 2009 From: matthew at azza.com (Matthew Hatch) Date: Tue Mar 31 06:18:47 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: OH FOR THE LOVE OF LINUS STOP ALREADY!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D6E560A-403F-4094-8534-47B9D05A5825@azza.com> On Mar 31, 2009, at 6:26 AM, Clint Savage wrote: > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 3:34 AM, Alan Young > wrote: >> If you don't stop this incessant arguing I swear I'll pull this >> mailing list over and you can walk home from here! >> -- >> Alan >> Sent from: Utah United States. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> > > +1 > > About every year or so, this discussion has to be held. It's petty > and useless, it convinces none and only annoys the rest. Generally, I > am mute about this sort of thing, but just quit it! > > Clint I typed up a message not to dissimilar from the above yesterday, but chose not to send it. Now that somebody else did for me, I hereby third the request to end the bickering. For those of us who couldn't care less about top posting, the thread amounts to nothing more than spam (which is more annoying than how someone replies to a message). If you must continue trying to change each others minds and behaviors, please take the discussion off list. -- Matthew From sinuhe at gnu.org Tue Mar 31 06:43:04 2009 From: sinuhe at gnu.org (D. E. Evans) Date: Tue Mar 31 06:43:06 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: OH FOR THE LOVE OF LINUS STOP ALREADY!!! In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Mar 2009 06:26:34 -0600 References: Message-ID: About every year or so, this discussion has to be held. It's petty and useless, it convinces none and only annoys the rest. "Thus saith the RFC..." quoth the geek in glee; but then there came along someone to squash our song. I found the conversation productive, and minus the occasional rant about the rant from the peanut gallery, we appear to have had a civil, if not redundant, useful conversation. It may happen once year; it probably needs to happen more often. From stevehildebrand757 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 31 06:46:45 2009 From: stevehildebrand757 at yahoo.com (Steve Hildebrand) Date: Tue Mar 31 06:46:53 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. In-Reply-To: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org> References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org> Message-ID: <723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello! Looking for some general SATA tips, if anyone has them. Gigabyte motherboard, Athlon 9950 black, 4gb memory, Ubuntu 8.10: The DVD isn't reading correctly, it seems to think blank dvds are cds, and the hard drive won't show up correctly. Nautilus lists it as an unmounted SCSI device, but it won't mount, and the computer won't boot from the dvd anymore, either, so I can't install Ubuntu AMD64. I set it to AHCI mode instead of IDE emulation in BIOS, but it wasn't working before, either. BIOS recognizes them both, and the DVD will read dvds, just not write to them. It can burn CDs no problem. Thanks in advance! ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/e2c754db/attachment.html From sjansen at buscaluz.org Tue Mar 31 06:55:37 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Tue Mar 31 06:55:43 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: OH FOR THE LOVE OF LINUS STOP ALREADY!!! In-Reply-To: <0D6E560A-403F-4094-8534-47B9D05A5825@azza.com> References: <0D6E560A-403F-4094-8534-47B9D05A5825@azza.com> Message-ID: <1238507737.3569.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 07:18 -0600, Matthew Hatch wrote: > I typed up a message not to dissimilar from the above yesterday, but > chose not to send it. Now that somebody else did for me, I hereby > third the request to end the bickering. For those of us who couldn't > care less about top posting, the thread amounts to nothing more than > spam (which is more annoying than how someone replies to a message). I'll agree to drop it if you'll agree to trim your replies. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From thatch45 at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 07:20:40 2009 From: thatch45 at gmail.com (Thomas S Hatch) Date: Tue Mar 31 07:20:44 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: OH FOR THE LOVE OF LINUS STOP ALREADY!!! In-Reply-To: <1238507737.3569.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <0D6E560A-403F-4094-8534-47B9D05A5825@azza.com> <1238507737.3569.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6172c17e0903310720m446da435ud7ee03104859f892@mail.gmail.com> +1 Tom is with Clint -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/3de6a45f/attachment.html From matthew at azza.com Tue Mar 31 07:23:38 2009 From: matthew at azza.com (Matthew Hatch) Date: Tue Mar 31 07:23:54 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: OH FOR THE LOVE OF LINUS STOP ALREADY!!! In-Reply-To: <1238507737.3569.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <0D6E560A-403F-4094-8534-47B9D05A5825@azza.com> <1238507737.3569.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49D2276A.5070505@azza.com> Stuart Jansen wrote: > I'll agree to drop it if you'll agree to trim your replies. > Seriously? I mean, is it really that big of a deal to you? How old are you, anyway? My last message was sent from my iPhone, which defaults to top posting, with no option to bottom post by default. Also, it currently has no mechanism to delete text en masse (I have to wait for v3.0), which makes trimming difficult and cumbersome. The fact that I bottom posted anyway should've been enough. But you seriously had to come back and rag on me for not trimming? This group is supposed to be about Linux and open source stuff in Utah. Territorial pissings about how RFCs are supposed to be obeyed are off topic, and when the conversations draws out as it has, it becomes nothing more than a nuisance. So -- I trimmed this reply. Now drop it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 257 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/7d8094d8/signature.pgp From chad at planetmayfield.com Tue Mar 31 07:31:49 2009 From: chad at planetmayfield.com (Chad R Mayfield) Date: Tue Mar 31 07:31:56 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: OH FOR THE LOVE OF LINUS STOP ALREADY!!! In-Reply-To: <49D2276A.5070505@azza.com> References: <0D6E560A-403F-4094-8534-47B9D05A5825@azza.com> <1238507737.3569.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D2276A.5070505@azza.com> Message-ID: <23965746-5093-479A-A27F-B5471AC58EF3@planetmayfield.com> On Mar 31, 2009, at 8:23 AM, Matthew Hatch wrote: > So -- I trimmed this reply. Now drop it. +10 and Amen. From mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com Tue Mar 31 08:30:02 2009 From: mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com (Matt Warnock) Date: Tue Mar 31 08:30:22 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. In-Reply-To: <723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org> <723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49D236FA.4090804@ridgecrestherbals.com> Steve Hildebrand wrote: > Hello! Looking for some general SATA tips, if anyone has them. > Gigabyte motherboard, Athlon 9950 black, 4gb memory, Ubuntu 8.10: The > DVD isn't reading correctly, it seems to think blank dvds are cds, and > the hard drive won't show up correctly. Nautilus lists it as an > unmounted SCSI device, but it won't mount, and the computer won't boot > from the dvd anymore, either, so I can't install Ubuntu AMD64. I set it > to AHCI mode instead of IDE emulation in BIOS, but it wasn't working > before, either. BIOS recognizes them both, and the DVD will read dvds, > just not write to them. It can burn CDs no problem. I don't know that I can add much, as I am not that much of a hardware type, but since this is your second unanswered request, I'll try. I have never had much trouble with this, it "just works" for me under ubuntu 8.10. Since your mileage obviously varies, I'd try the following (which I admit is may be pretty obvious and you may have already done): 1) Check the logs for any hardware messages. Sometimes the drivers will log a message that may provide a clue. Since it won't boot but will read both CDs and DVDs, I suspect a hardware issue of some kind. I have always used IDE option in BIOS, don't know whether that may affect your boot. 2) Try Different brands of CD/DVD. I have seen huge variations in quality even from batch to batch of good brands over the years. 3) Clean the optical drive. Dirty heads are misery on DVDs, especially, less so with CDs. 4) Try swapping in another drive. If there is a hardware fault, replacing with a known good drive should verify the fact. If the known good drive still fails, then it's in the motherboard (or cabling). Sorry I can't be more helpful. -- Matt Warnock, President RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. From chris.c.hogan at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 08:34:40 2009 From: chris.c.hogan at gmail.com (Christopher Hogan) Date: Tue Mar 31 08:34:43 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: References: <200903301000.42856.fozz@xmission.com> <1238429325.3596.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6977f2fc0903310834m13bbe477k9e3d06d38e676642@mail.gmail.com> >You forgot to mention "integrated fingerprint reader". Trust me, you'll thank me later. Just curious, why? It seems to me that fingerprint readers are a security risk. The software tends to tie all of your passwords to your fingerprint. All a person has to do is lift your fingerprint and they have full access to your computer. There was a Mythbusters a while back that showed this to be easy. I'd rather trust a certificate with strong pass-phrase. >My only recommendation is to take a close look at the sound chip. I've been using xUbuntu on a Toshiba Satellite u205 for the better part of seven months. I'm sympathetic. My laptop is an A105. Every kernel brings a new set of problems. Since 2.6.27, the sound card has worked alright, though maximum sound output has changed with every new release. Now they are starting to mess with the video output. >I've been pretty dang impressed with my Dell Latitude D830N. I've never had a problem with Linux on a Dell. Just be careful of Intel onboard graphics. The current kernel (2.6.29) has a lot of experimental code. >Intel 3945 A/B/G wireless My personal experience, this chip is very flaky. It's gotten better since they added the driver to the kernel. However, it still has problems with noise and randomly drops connections. I've also had problems with it under Windows. So it's not just a Linux driver problem. On the whole though, I'd still recommend Intel wireless over alternatives. Chris From sjansen at buscaluz.org Tue Mar 31 08:57:40 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Tue Mar 31 08:57:44 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Recommendations for a Notebook In-Reply-To: <6977f2fc0903310834m13bbe477k9e3d06d38e676642@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903301000.42856.fozz@xmission.com> <1238429325.3596.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6977f2fc0903310834m13bbe477k9e3d06d38e676642@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1238515060.3544.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 09:34 -0600, Christopher Hogan wrote: > Just curious, why? It seems to me that fingerprint readers are a > security risk. The software tends to tie all of your passwords to your > fingerprint. All a person has to do is lift your fingerprint and they > have full access to your computer. There was a Mythbusters a while > back that showed this to be easy. I'd rather trust a certificate with > strong pass-phrase. Convenience. I type one password in the morning to unlock Gnome keyring. >From then on I can unlock my screen, su to root, launch virt-manager, etc. with just a finger swipe. If somebody wants access to your data badly enough that they are willing to attack the fingerprint reader, there are easier attacks. For example, do you care enough about security that your encrypt your entire hard drive, including swap partition? If not, you're ignoring a much easier attack. Good security depends on understanding what you're trying to accomplish, and what your priorities are. If that weren't true, we'd all build our homes like bank vaults. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From sllug at fungusmovies.com Tue Mar 31 11:25:58 2009 From: sllug at fungusmovies.com (Lonnie Olson) Date: Tue Mar 31 11:26:01 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D1AD12.80107@ridgecrestherbals.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> <3f34f8420903302141p7caf874bqb9e128d8cc6cb94c@mail.gmail.com> <49D1AD12.80107@ridgecrestherbals.com> Message-ID: <8bcade370903311125p2258bcc9r4e6e3ba78a721b5d@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: > This harks back to an even older law of computing, Postel's robustness > principle: "Be conservative in what you do, and liberal in what you accept > from others." (RFC 760) ?Works for people as well as systems. (And is quoted > to that effect in RFC 1855, section 2.1.1, bullet 6.) And how can you possibly consider including deeply nested quotes that go on for a mile "conservative". Don't forget there are technical reasons for trimming. Especially nowdays when email archiving is now the rule rather than the exception. Both the sender and the recipient have copies of the original email. Quoting it, especially in it's entirety, especially when it's unneeded, causes that same email to be duplicated in at least 2 more places (your sent box, and the recipients). In the days of email archiving you have also duplicated it 2 more times (your archive, their archive). And now add 4 more exchanges in the conversation. Now the original email is now duplicated 20 times. 4 times per transmission. That's also not counting backups of your email, or backups of email archiving systems. Now we have 40 copies of the original email. This isn't just the extreme case either, it is more often than not, the normal situation. Yes, storage is relatively cheap nowdays, but it's management of this storage is not. *please* trim your emails. --lonnie From jshatch at azza.com Tue Mar 31 11:41:58 2009 From: jshatch at azza.com (Jarom Hatch) Date: Tue Mar 31 11:43:52 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D1AD12.80107@ridgecrestherbals.com> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D1151B.30408@unum5.org> <49D122D1.7070706@mscis.org> <49D199E6.4060002@ridgecrestherbals.com> <3f34f8420903302141p7caf874bqb9e128d8cc6cb94c@mail.gmail.com> <49D1AD12.80107@ridgecrestherbals.com> Message-ID: <49D263F6.3090108@azza.com> Matt Warnock wrote: > I'd also add this quote from Abraham Lincoln: "Who takes offense > where none is intended, is a fool. Who takes offense where offense > *is* intended, is a bigger fool." I've seen reference to this quote from President Lincoln, President Tyler, Confucius and Brigham Young. Don't know who's it really is... oh, and I trimmed, and rewrapped the above quote. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/e9f7d9f1/signature.pgp From aaron.toponce at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 11:47:55 2009 From: aaron.toponce at gmail.com (Aaron Toponce) Date: Tue Mar 31 11:48:30 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> References: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D2655B.9060500@gmail.com> Aaron wrote: > I think top posting is common mostly because of email clients that > default to top posting (ie: Outlook). EVERYBODY top posts where I > work. EVERYBODY uses Outlook. If you were to bottom post to someone > there they wouldn't find your reply - ever. We are also using Windows extensively with Outlook as the only approved email software to use. As such, as much as I would love to bottom post, and have Outlook configured in such a manner that it treats email replies like standard email clients, I have found no way to make this possible. From what I can tell, if you want to bottom post, you have a great deal of work ahead of you to even make the email readable in a thread-like fashion. I've got better things to do with my time then format everyone's email. Outlook doesn't thread emails in a manner similar to Thunderbird, Evolution and Mutt. So, what am I to do? Does anyone have a suggestion for making Outlook behave like other clients in terms of threading and bottom-posting? -- _ Aaron Toponce ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign www.aarontoponce.org X www.asciiribbon.org / \ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 552 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/2a3e1140/signature.pgp From sjansen at buscaluz.org Tue Mar 31 11:56:08 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Tue Mar 31 11:56:12 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D2655B.9060500@gmail.com> References: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> <49D2655B.9060500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1238525768.3544.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 12:47 -0600, Aaron Toponce wrote: > So, what am I to do? Does anyone have a suggestion for making Outlook > behave like other clients in terms of threading and bottom-posting? I don't understand the question. Why is special configuration needed to highlight text and press the backspace key? -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From aaron.toponce at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 12:09:25 2009 From: aaron.toponce at gmail.com (Aaron Toponce) Date: Tue Mar 31 12:09:47 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D17FF5.2080106@mscis.org> References: <1238437998.3596.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <79c119390903301624k6c7b0f8cg572cc97e906235e1@mail.gmail.com> <1238458540.3569.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D17FF5.2080106@mscis.org> Message-ID: <49D26A65.9040408@gmail.com> Brandon Stout wrote: > Oh, and just to start another battle (c'mon Aaron Toponce, now's your > chance to champion plain text emails), I set the other email address to > send html by default and this one to format plain text. I'll quote the ASCII Ribbon Campaign (in my signature) directly, as they do a better job explaining why HTML sucks: * Quite a few e-mail clients do not support HTML e-mail. This means that people who receive your e-mail are most likely unable to read it, as it'll be displayed as raw HTML code, or even not at all and just give an error message! * Other clients have a very poor or broken HTML rendering, causing the messages to be unreadable as well. * Sending HTML e-mails causes great overhead, and is very inefficient. HTML e-mail sizes are always much larger than plain text messages, even if they don't contain any graphics. A big portion of the internet users has a pay-per-time connection and/or a download limit on their account and will actually have to pay when they exceed it. * HTML e-mails with a background image, flashy graphics (for instance the service Incredimail offers), are usually a complete waste of bandwidth, inbox space, and time. Having to download 200kb or more for an e-mail that contains a few lines of text is quite ridiculous. The same can be done in a fraction of that size (like, 0.1% of it!) when using plain text, saying exactly the same, and communicating exactly the same information. * People that are limited to a text-only terminal, people with disabilities, blind people, basically anyone that cannot use a graphical interface easily or at all, are likely unable to read your mail. * It even poses a serious security risk if "inline graphics" are used and downloaded on-the-fly when you preview or open an HTML e-mail. Smartly constructed image links can "call home" to, for instance, an advertisement server and get a confirmation with your e-mail address and IP address, browser type, operating system, time zone, and even more information, confirming that the e-mail was indeed opened and viewed, all automatically, and with that confirming your address as being read and a good target to send SPAM! * More reasons can be found than these of course. Many more, in fact. -- _ Aaron Toponce ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign www.aarontoponce.org X www.asciiribbon.org / \ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 552 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/ab873c4c/signature.pgp From aaron.toponce at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 12:12:59 2009 From: aaron.toponce at gmail.com (Aaron Toponce) Date: Tue Mar 31 12:14:49 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238525768.3544.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> <49D2655B.9060500@gmail.com> <1238525768.3544.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49D26B3B.1040308@gmail.com> Stuart Jansen wrote: > I don't understand the question. Why is special configuration needed to > highlight text and press the backspace key? The question is rather simple, if you understand how Outlook handles threads. I want Outlook to behave more in a manner than is similar to Thunderbird or Evolution, showing the position of the message in the thread, rather than treating them as conversations, like Gmail. -- _ Aaron Toponce ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign www.aarontoponce.org X www.asciiribbon.org / \ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 552 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/d2c01e4f/signature.pgp From aaron.toponce at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 12:24:37 2009 From: aaron.toponce at gmail.com (Aaron Toponce) Date: Tue Mar 31 12:24:56 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238525768.3544.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> <49D2655B.9060500@gmail.com> <1238525768.3544.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49D26DF5.3020903@gmail.com> Stuart Jansen wrote: > I don't understand the question. Why is special configuration needed to > highlight text and press the backspace key? Nevermind. After a bit of time on the Google Machine, I found this: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/. Exactly what I was looking for. -- _ Aaron Toponce ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign www.aarontoponce.org X www.asciiribbon.org / \ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 552 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/c4308293/signature.pgp From sjansen at buscaluz.org Tue Mar 31 12:26:21 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Tue Mar 31 12:26:24 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <49D26B3B.1040308@gmail.com> References: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> <49D2655B.9060500@gmail.com> <1238525768.3544.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D26B3B.1040308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1238527581.3544.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 13:12 -0600, Aaron Toponce wrote: > Stuart Jansen wrote: > > I don't understand the question. Why is special configuration needed to > > highlight text and press the backspace key? > > The question is rather simple, if you understand how Outlook handles > threads. I want Outlook to behave more in a manner than is similar to > Thunderbird or Evolution, showing the position of the message in the > thread, rather than treating them as conversations, like Gmail. I was deliberately ignoring your Outlook threading question becasue (1) there's no good reason to use Outlook to access list messages and (2) there's probably no cure for Outlook's brokenness. I was responding to your question: "Does anyone have a suggestion for making Outlook behave like other clients in terms of [...] bottom-posting?" Several people have attempted to blame their clients for their own unwillingness to properly trim and reply. It boggles my mind that anyone would even consider that a remotely appropriate excuse. -- "XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it." - Chris Maden From aaron.toponce at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 12:42:18 2009 From: aaron.toponce at gmail.com (Aaron Toponce) Date: Tue Mar 31 12:42:38 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: netiquette: top posting In-Reply-To: <1238527581.3544.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238445253.3392.38.camel@nc6320.kobran.org> <7446bf70903301357we2b8278m1f5695063d11d707@mail.gmail.com> <49D2655B.9060500@gmail.com> <1238525768.3544.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <49D26B3B.1040308@gmail.com> <1238527581.3544.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49D2721A.6050205@gmail.com> Stuart Jansen wrote: > I was responding to your question: > "Does anyone have a suggestion for making Outlook behave like other > clients in terms of [...] bottom-posting?" > > Several people have attempted to blame their clients for their own > unwillingness to properly trim and reply. It boggles my mind that anyone > would even consider that a remotely appropriate excuse. You haven't used Outlook, have you? Outlook doesn't indent the conversations. It's one message on top of the other on top of the other on top of the other. Further, if you have a signature, Outlook places it above the thread, below your reply. So, if I want to bottom post in Outlook, here are the steps I need to take with each mail: * Cut my signature. * Trim as appropriate. * Cut, paste and indent the previous messages as necessary for context and visual flow. * Type at the end of the mail. * Paste my signature. That's a lot of work just to bottom-post, don't you think? Personally, I have better things to do with my time. Or I could just trim everything out, and leave my message as the only text in the reading pane. That's awfully arrogant of me, choking out context, so my message is the only one present. Or I could top-post and hit send. Thus, the reason for my question. Make sense now? -- _ Aaron Toponce ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign www.aarontoponce.org X www.asciiribbon.org / \ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 552 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/18ff2e4f/signature.pgp From beebe at math.utah.edu Tue Mar 31 13:04:35 2009 From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe) Date: Tue Mar 31 13:04:44 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: [sllug-members] GNU/Linux and the Conficker worm Message-ID: This ComputerWorld online news story today may be of interest to readers: Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols: 100% cure for Conficker http://cwflyris.computerworld.com/t/4687782/419952/179436/0/ Its critical point is in this paragraph: The sad truth is no matter what you do with Windows, whether you're running XP, Vista, or the Windows 7 beta, you're not safe. Now, however there's a patch that will stop Conficker, and almost all other malware programs, in their tracks. It's called Linux. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aaron.toponce at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 13:29:20 2009 From: aaron.toponce at gmail.com (Aaron Toponce) Date: Tue Mar 31 13:29:32 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: [sllug-members] GNU/Linux and the Conficker worm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D27D20.5040502@gmail.com> Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > This ComputerWorld online news story today may be of interest to > readers: > > Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols: 100% cure for Conficker > http://cwflyris.computerworld.com/t/4687782/419952/179436/0/ > > Its critical point is in this paragraph: > > The sad truth is no matter what you do with Windows, whether > you're running XP, Vista, or the Windows 7 beta, you're not > safe. Now, however there's a patch that will stop Conficker, > and almost all other malware programs, in their tracks. It's > called Linux. If you have nmap v4.85BETA5 or later installed (earlier versions don't detect the worm), you can run the following command against your network to see who is infected (get permission first as this is a stealth SYN scan): $ nmap -PN -T4 -p139,445 -n -v --script=smb-check-vulns --script-args safe=1 [network range] > vulns.txt Where [network range] can be something like 192.168.0.0/24 or 192.168.0.1-254. You will probably see something like this if there is an infection (grep for INFECTED or VULNERABLE): Host script results: | smb-check-vulns: | MS08-067: FIXED | Conficker: Likely INFECTED |_ regsvc DoS: VULNERABLE -- _ Aaron Toponce ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign www.aarontoponce.org X www.asciiribbon.org / \ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 552 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://sllug.org/pipermail/sllug-members/attachments/20090331/143ab6b3/signature-0001.pgp From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 17:26:37 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Tue Mar 31 17:26:44 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. In-Reply-To: <723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org> <723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903311726l75239d13l4aef0fc434becfd8@mail.gmail.com> So to verify, both your hard drive and DVD burner are both SATA? Just for complete clarification, are the SATA controllers SATA or SATA2? Likewise, what version of SATA are the HDD and DVD drives? SATA and SATA 2 are backwards compatible and all, but I just want to get a better idea. Now, when did this first start happening? I see you mentioned Ubuntu 8.10, has it worked since you installed/upgraded to 8.10? Does it work in 8.04, 7.04, etc.. ? What kernel version, and system environment are you running (uname -a)? Have you tried to unmount and remount the drives? You may ultimately need to boot to the live CD version of Ubuntu to do this properly. What shows in your /etc/fstab? Does the hardware work any better in the x86 architecture of Ubuntu? And likewise the direction that Matt was going, have you tried different DVD drives? What was the result of that? Once I can get that information, I'll have a better idea of whats going on, and guide you in the right direction. :) Thanks, Justin 2009/3/31 Steve Hildebrand : > Hello!? Looking for some general SATA tips, if anyone has them.? Gigabyte > motherboard, Athlon 9950 black, 4gb memory, Ubuntu 8.10:? The DVD isn't > reading correctly, it seems to think blank dvds are cds, and the hard drive > won't show up correctly.? Nautilus lists it as an unmounted SCSI device, but > it won't mount, and the computer won't boot from the dvd anymore, either, so > I can't install Ubuntu AMD64.? I set it to AHCI mode instead of IDE > emulation in BIOS, but it wasn't working before, either.? BIOS recognizes > them both, and the DVD will read dvds, just not write to them.? It can burn > CDs no problem. > > Thanks in advance! > ________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > From jfriend31 at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 19:31:13 2009 From: jfriend31 at comcast.net (jack User) Date: Tue Mar 31 19:31:23 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903311726l75239d13l4aef0fc434becfd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org> <723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2f932a4a0903311726l75239d13l4aef0fc434becfd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1238553073.6180.10.camel@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain> i am using U 8.10. my machine has a SATA HD and two DVD drives--one burner. on installation U 8.10 found all the peripherals and all work fine. on boot this go round i plugged in a photo memory stick with a USB adapter and now have all the photos in front of me. i cannot tell that U 8.10 recognizes the floppy drive at all. i have no idea how to check that either. U 8.10 recognizes all the COM ports including parallel port. i have printed using the HP deskjet 5650 without error. i also have an Epson stylus but have not turned that on to see if U 8.10 recognizes it yet. so far i have found everything except how to access WP files. i have opened Word files in Open Office created by Word. only the fonts are faulty. i need to learn how to move the TrueType fonts from Windows to U 8.10. most everything that one does in Windows is now accessable in U 8.10 and i like Ubuntu better! jack On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 18:26 -0600, Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > So to verify, both your hard drive and DVD burner are both SATA? Just > for complete clarification, are the SATA controllers SATA or SATA2? > Likewise, what version of SATA are the HDD and DVD drives? SATA and > SATA 2 are backwards compatible and all, but I just want to get a > better idea. > > Now, when did this first start happening? I see you mentioned Ubuntu > 8.10, has it worked since you installed/upgraded to 8.10? Does it work > in 8.04, 7.04, etc.. ? > > What kernel version, and system environment are you running (uname -a)? > > Have you tried to unmount and remount the drives? You may ultimately > need to boot to the live CD version of Ubuntu to do this properly. > What shows in your /etc/fstab? > > Does the hardware work any better in the x86 architecture of Ubuntu? > > And likewise the direction that Matt was going, have you tried > different DVD drives? What was the result of that? > > Once I can get that information, I'll have a better idea of whats > going on, and guide you in the right direction. :) > > Thanks, > > Justin > > 2009/3/31 Steve Hildebrand : > > Hello! Looking for some general SATA tips, if anyone has them. Gigabyte > > motherboard, Athlon 9950 black, 4gb memory, Ubuntu 8.10: The DVD isn't > > reading correctly, it seems to think blank dvds are cds, and the hard drive > > won't show up correctly. Nautilus lists it as an unmounted SCSI device, but > > it won't mount, and the computer won't boot from the dvd anymore, either, so > > I can't install Ubuntu AMD64. I set it to AHCI mode instead of IDE > > emulation in BIOS, but it wasn't working before, either. BIOS recognizes > > them both, and the DVD will read dvds, just not write to them. It can burn > > CDs no problem. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > ________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > > sllug-members@sllug.org > > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 19:53:39 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Tue Mar 31 19:53:43 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. In-Reply-To: <1238553073.6180.10.camel@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain> References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org> <723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2f932a4a0903311726l75239d13l4aef0fc434becfd8@mail.gmail.com> <1238553073.6180.10.camel@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903311953p51269ac1od5922fd77b1450d4@mail.gmail.com> Yeah, Ubuntu is awesome. Used to be hardcore SuSE, Mandrake and Fedora Core, but then once I started playing with Debian and then Ubuntu, I realized how much better it was in simplicity and flexibility (at least in my opinion ;) ). Check your /etc/fstab file using nano, or if you want to do it in the gui, just use gedit to open it. See if /dev/fda1 (I think that's what it is, it's been a while since I've used floppy drives in general :P) is listed. If not, you can mount it there in fstab, or, just mount it when you need it by using the mount command. As far as the WordPerfect wp files, just install openoffice. Go to the Terminal and type "sudo apt-get install openoffice". If that returns no results, just search apt "sudo apt-cache search openoffice" and then use the proper package name. OpenOffice.org support MS Office, WordPerfect, etc... Best office suite in the world in my opinion... On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:31 PM, jack User wrote: > i am using U 8.10. my machine has a SATA HD and two DVD drives--one > burner. on installation U 8.10 found all the peripherals and all work > fine. on boot this go round i plugged in a photo memory stick with a USB > adapter and now have all the photos in front of me. > > i cannot tell that U 8.10 recognizes the floppy drive at all. i have no > idea how to check that either. U 8.10 recognizes all the COM ports > including parallel port. i have printed using the HP deskjet 5650 > without error. > > i also have an Epson stylus but have not turned that on to see if U 8.10 > recognizes it yet. > > so far i have found everything except how to access WP files. i have > opened Word files in Open Office created by Word. only the fonts are > faulty. i need to learn how to move the TrueType fonts from Windows to U > 8.10. > > most everything that one does in Windows is now accessable in U 8.10 and > i like Ubuntu better! > > jack > > > On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 18:26 -0600, Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: >> So to verify, both your hard drive and DVD burner are both SATA? Just >> for complete clarification, are the SATA controllers SATA or SATA2? >> Likewise, what version of SATA are the HDD and DVD drives? SATA and >> SATA 2 are backwards compatible and all, but I just want to get a >> better idea. >> >> Now, when did this first start happening? I see you mentioned Ubuntu >> 8.10, has it worked since you installed/upgraded to 8.10? Does it work >> in 8.04, 7.04, etc.. ? >> >> What kernel version, and system environment are you running (uname -a)? >> >> Have you tried to unmount and remount the drives? You may ultimately >> need to boot to the live CD version of Ubuntu to do this properly. >> What shows in your /etc/fstab? >> >> Does the hardware work any better in the x86 architecture of Ubuntu? >> >> And likewise the direction that Matt was going, have you tried >> different DVD drives? What was the result of that? >> >> Once I can get that information, I'll have a better idea of whats >> going on, and guide you in the right direction. :) >> >> Thanks, >> >> Justin >> >> 2009/3/31 Steve Hildebrand : >> > Hello! ?Looking for some general SATA tips, if anyone has them. ?Gigabyte >> > motherboard, Athlon 9950 black, 4gb memory, Ubuntu 8.10: ?The DVD isn't >> > reading correctly, it seems to think blank dvds are cds, and the hard drive >> > won't show up correctly. ?Nautilus lists it as an unmounted SCSI device, but >> > it won't mount, and the computer won't boot from the dvd anymore, either, so >> > I can't install Ubuntu AMD64. ?I set it to AHCI mode instead of IDE >> > emulation in BIOS, but it wasn't working before, either. ?BIOS recognizes >> > them both, and the DVD will read dvds, just not write to them. ?It can burn >> > CDs no problem. >> > >> > Thanks in advance! >> > ________________________________ >> > >> > >> > ______________________________________________________________________ >> > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> > sllug-members@sllug.org >> > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From jfriend31 at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 21:02:15 2009 From: jfriend31 at comcast.net (Jack B. Friend) Date: Tue Mar 31 20:02:27 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org><723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com><2f932a4a0903311726l75239d13l4aef0fc434becfd8@mail.gmail.com><1238553073.6180.10.camel@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain> <2f932a4a0903311953p51269ac1od5922fd77b1450d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001c9b27e$a5286080$b7ecc347@home9w1vwe2pnv> Thank you! jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Brinkerhoff" To: "Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions" Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 2009 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. Yeah, Ubuntu is awesome. Used to be hardcore SuSE, Mandrake and Fedora Core, but then once I started playing with Debian and then Ubuntu, I realized how much better it was in simplicity and flexibility (at least in my opinion ;) ). Check your /etc/fstab file using nano, or if you want to do it in the gui, just use gedit to open it. See if /dev/fda1 (I think that's what it is, it's been a while since I've used floppy drives in general :P) is listed. If not, you can mount it there in fstab, or, just mount it when you need it by using the mount command. As far as the WordPerfect wp files, just install openoffice. Go to the Terminal and type "sudo apt-get install openoffice". If that returns no results, just search apt "sudo apt-cache search openoffice" and then use the proper package name. OpenOffice.org support MS Office, WordPerfect, etc... Best office suite in the world in my opinion... On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:31 PM, jack User wrote: > i am using U 8.10. my machine has a SATA HD and two DVD drives--one > burner. on installation U 8.10 found all the peripherals and all work > fine. on boot this go round i plugged in a photo memory stick with a USB > adapter and now have all the photos in front of me. > > i cannot tell that U 8.10 recognizes the floppy drive at all. i have no > idea how to check that either. U 8.10 recognizes all the COM ports > including parallel port. i have printed using the HP deskjet 5650 > without error. > > i also have an Epson stylus but have not turned that on to see if U 8.10 > recognizes it yet. > > so far i have found everything except how to access WP files. i have > opened Word files in Open Office created by Word. only the fonts are > faulty. i need to learn how to move the TrueType fonts from Windows to U > 8.10. > > most everything that one does in Windows is now accessable in U 8.10 and > i like Ubuntu better! > > jack > > > On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 18:26 -0600, Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: >> So to verify, both your hard drive and DVD burner are both SATA? Just >> for complete clarification, are the SATA controllers SATA or SATA2? >> Likewise, what version of SATA are the HDD and DVD drives? SATA and >> SATA 2 are backwards compatible and all, but I just want to get a >> better idea. >> >> Now, when did this first start happening? I see you mentioned Ubuntu >> 8.10, has it worked since you installed/upgraded to 8.10? Does it work >> in 8.04, 7.04, etc.. ? >> >> What kernel version, and system environment are you running (uname -a)? >> >> Have you tried to unmount and remount the drives? You may ultimately >> need to boot to the live CD version of Ubuntu to do this properly. >> What shows in your /etc/fstab? >> >> Does the hardware work any better in the x86 architecture of Ubuntu? >> >> And likewise the direction that Matt was going, have you tried >> different DVD drives? What was the result of that? >> >> Once I can get that information, I'll have a better idea of whats >> going on, and guide you in the right direction. :) >> >> Thanks, >> >> Justin >> >> 2009/3/31 Steve Hildebrand : >> > Hello! Looking for some general SATA tips, if anyone has them. Gigabyte >> > motherboard, Athlon 9950 black, 4gb memory, Ubuntu 8.10: The DVD isn't >> > reading correctly, it seems to think blank dvds are cds, and the hard drive >> > won't show up correctly. Nautilus lists it as an unmounted SCSI device, but >> > it won't mount, and the computer won't boot from the dvd anymore, either, so >> > I can't install Ubuntu AMD64. I set it to AHCI mode instead of IDE >> > emulation in BIOS, but it wasn't working before, either. BIOS recognizes >> > them both, and the DVD will read dvds, just not write to them. It can burn >> > CDs no problem. >> > >> > Thanks in advance! >> > ________________________________ >> > >> > >> > ______________________________________________________________________ >> > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> > sllug-members@sllug.org >> > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members >> > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. >> Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah >> sllug-members@sllug.org >> http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > ______________________________________________________________________ See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah sllug-members@sllug.org http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members From tripzero at nextabyte.com Tue Mar 31 20:41:05 2009 From: tripzero at nextabyte.com (kev) Date: Tue Mar 31 20:41:32 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. In-Reply-To: <001001c9b27e$a5286080$b7ecc347@home9w1vwe2pnv> References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org><723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com><2f932a4a0903311726l75239d13l4aef0fc434becfd8@mail.gmail.com><1238553073.6180.10.camel@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain> <2f932a4a0903311953p51269ac1od5922fd77b1450d4@mail.gmail.com> <001001c9b27e$a5286080$b7ecc347@home9w1vwe2pnv> Message-ID: <49D2E251.7010207@nextabyte.com> Jack B. Friend wrote: > Thank you! > jack > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Justin Brinkerhoff" > To: "Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions" > Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 2009 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is > over. > > > Yeah, Ubuntu is awesome. Used to be hardcore SuSE, Mandrake and Fedora > Core, but then once I started playing with Debian and then Ubuntu, I > realized how much better it was in simplicity and flexibility (at > least in my opinion ;) ). > > Check your /etc/fstab file using nano, or if you want to do it in the > gui, just use gedit to open it. See if /dev/fda1 (I think that's what > it is, it's been a while since I've used floppy drives in general :P) > is listed. > > If not, you can mount it there in fstab, or, just mount it when you > need it by using the mount command. > > As far as the WordPerfect wp files, just install openoffice. Go to the > Terminal and type "sudo apt-get install openoffice". If that returns > no results, just search apt "sudo apt-cache search openoffice" and > then use the proper package name. OpenOffice.org support MS Office, > WordPerfect, etc... Best office suite in the world in my opinion... > BTW, I have the PPA repo for OpenOffice 3.0 if you want it. Ubuntu 8.10 didn't include 3.0, but I think it is worth upgrading to. deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/openoffice-pkgs/ubuntu intrepid main add to your source.list. cheers, tripzero From justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 21:01:20 2009 From: justinbrinkerhoff at gmail.com (Justin Brinkerhoff) Date: Tue Mar 31 21:01:23 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. In-Reply-To: <49D2E251.7010207@nextabyte.com> References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org> <723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2f932a4a0903311726l75239d13l4aef0fc434becfd8@mail.gmail.com> <1238553073.6180.10.camel@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain> <2f932a4a0903311953p51269ac1od5922fd77b1450d4@mail.gmail.com> <001001c9b27e$a5286080$b7ecc347@home9w1vwe2pnv> <49D2E251.7010207@nextabyte.com> Message-ID: <2f932a4a0903312101vce49ec5o2472dc1edc896467@mail.gmail.com> Awesome, thanks tripzero... Glad I knew that before I setup another Ubuntu workstation, because 3.0 is definitely worth upgrading to. So OpenOffice 3.0 is not in the APT repository at all? That is odd. On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:41 PM, kev wrote: > Jack B. Friend wrote: >> Thank you! >> jack >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Justin Brinkerhoff" >> To: "Salt Lake Linux Users Group Discussions" >> Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 2009 7:53 PM >> Subject: Re: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is >> over. >> >> >> Yeah, Ubuntu is awesome. Used to be hardcore SuSE, Mandrake and Fedora >> Core, but then once I started playing with Debian and then Ubuntu, I >> realized how much better it was in simplicity and flexibility (at >> least in my opinion ;) ). >> >> Check your /etc/fstab file using nano, or if you want to do it in the >> gui, just use gedit to open it. See if /dev/fda1 (I think that's what >> it is, it's been a while since I've used floppy drives in general :P) >> is listed. >> >> If not, you can mount it there in fstab, or, just mount it when you >> need it by using the mount command. >> >> As far as the WordPerfect wp files, just install openoffice. Go to the >> Terminal and type "sudo apt-get install openoffice". If that returns >> no results, just search apt "sudo apt-cache search openoffice" and >> then use the proper package name. OpenOffice.org support MS Office, >> WordPerfect, etc... Best office suite in the world in my opinion... >> > > BTW, I have the PPA repo for OpenOffice 3.0 if you want it. ?Ubuntu 8.10 > didn't include 3.0, but I think it is worth upgrading to. > > deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/openoffice-pkgs/ubuntu intrepid main > > add to your source.list. > > cheers, > tripzero > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > See http://www.sllug.org/ for latest SLLUG news, information, links. > Join SLLUG and other UT LUG members on irc.FreeNode.net channel #Utah > sllug-members@sllug.org > http://www.sllug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sllug-members > From mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com Tue Mar 31 22:23:08 2009 From: mwarnock at ridgecrestherbals.com (Matt Warnock) Date: Tue Mar 31 22:23:28 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. In-Reply-To: <2f932a4a0903311953p51269ac1od5922fd77b1450d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org> <723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2f932a4a0903311726l75239d13l4aef0fc434becfd8@mail.gmail.com> <1238553073.6180.10.camel@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain> <2f932a4a0903311953p51269ac1od5922fd77b1450d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D2FA3C.5030602@ridgecrestherbals.com> Justin Brinkerhoff wrote: > As far as the WordPerfect wp files, just install openoffice. Go to the > Terminal and type "sudo apt-get install openoffice". If that returns > no results, just search apt "sudo apt-cache search openoffice" and > then use the proper package name. OpenOffice.org support MS Office, > WordPerfect, etc... Best office suite in the world in my opinion... Don't know if WP referred to WordPerfect or Word Processing generally, but AFAIK OOo only supports WordPerfect up to version 6. WP Office 2002 used version 10, and I am faced with converting all those legacy files with a DOS script. :( -- Matt Warnock, President RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. From u235sentinel at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 22:49:43 2009 From: u235sentinel at gmail.com (u235sentinel) Date: Tue Mar 31 22:49:48 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Re: SATA Questions, if the pissing contest is over. In-Reply-To: <49D2E251.7010207@nextabyte.com> References: <200903311319.n2VDJ7BN008668@sllug.org><723688.24282.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com><2f932a4a0903311726l75239d13l4aef0fc434becfd8@mail.gmail.com><1238553073.6180.10.camel@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain> <2f932a4a0903311953p51269ac1od5922fd77b1450d4@mail.gmail.com> <001001c9b27e$a5286080$b7ecc347@home9w1vwe2pnv> <49D2E251.7010207@nextabyte.com> Message-ID: <49D30077.8090008@gmail.com> speakin of SATA drives and all.... I've run into a problem with building a new MYTHTV system. Mainly with the RAID controller card. I've looked at a bunch of them including the 3dware and Promise cards. Anything that will support at least 4 Internet SATA drives and RAID 5. The 3dware seems to be what I want but with a serious cost. The cards run around $300 (YIKES!!) The Promise cards will do the trick at a better price however it's not a hardware RAID 5. I'd have to build a SOFTWARE version instead. Not my first choice but considering the cost I may go that route if I have to. I'm curious if anyone has found a good RAID 5 card for under $100 and of course supports Linux. I've looked through the Ubuntu forums but nothing seems to fit the bill. Figured I'd give it a shot here :-) Thanks! From sjansen at buscaluz.org Tue Mar 31 23:06:47 2009 From: sjansen at buscaluz.org (Stuart Jansen) Date: Tue Mar 31 23:06:50 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Okay, I was wrong. Message-ID: <1238566007.3762.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> I've been considering what was said in defense of top posting and I've come to a realization: I was wrong. This will surprise some of you. Allow me to explain my reasoning. 1) I realize now that I was stuck in the past. While I wrapped myself in decades of tradition, I now realize that if two of the most important tech companies ever (Microsoft and Google) both default to top posting, there must be a good reason. Eternal September should not be remembered as a tragedy, but as the beginning of our liberation. All praise be to AOL, liberator of the masses! 2) Let's face it, the Internet is write only media. I've been arguing that trimming replies is the courteous thing to do. This was based on the flawed assumption that someone will actually read anything I write. If the blogging revolution, Facebook, and Twitter have taught us nothing else, they have at least made clear that we should spend more time broadcasting our lives, and less time reading what others have to say. The time I spend trimming is time I could have spent typing. 3) Try as I might, I can't find a flaw in the irrefutable logic of the argument "I like top posting." I see now that I was wrong and I apologize. -- "Proprietary software is the software equivalent of a planned economy led by a dictators" -- Scott McNealy From kd7nyq at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 23:53:42 2009 From: kd7nyq at gmail.com (Andrew Jackman) Date: Tue Mar 31 23:53:43 2009 Subject: [sllug-members]: Okay, I was wrong. In-Reply-To: <1238566007.3762.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1238566007.3762.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <79c119390903312353k21156554rf79f23b17bbf1093@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Stuart Jansen wrote: > I've been considering what was said in defense of top posting and I've > come to a realization: I was wrong. This will surprise some of you. > Allow me to explain my reasoning. > > 1) I realize now that I was stuck in the past. While I wrapped myself in > decades of tradition, I now realize that if two of the most important > tech companies ever (Microsoft and Google) both default to top posting, > there must be a good reason. Eternal September should not be remembered > as a tragedy, but as the beginning of our liberation. All praise be to > AOL, liberator of the masses! > > 2) Let's face it, the Internet is write only media. I've been arguing > that trimming replies is the courteous thing to do. This was based on > the flawed assumption that someone will actually read anything I write. > If the blogging revolution, Facebook, and Twitter have taught us nothing > else, they have at least made clear that we should spend more time > broadcasting our lives, and less time reading what others have to say. > The time I spend trimming is time I could have spent typing. > > 3) Try as I might, I can't find a flaw in the irrefutable logic of the > argument "I like top posting." > > I see now that I was wrong and I apologize. > I didn't think you were wrong. I quite agree with the nature of manners, which you explained in an earlier post. Manners are manners. Evidently I was raised by wolves and that's why I forget how to coordinate the use of a fork and knife. Does that mean that I shouldn't be reminded? No. I like uniformity and I'm comforted by the expectation of a standard. Even if it's just tradition. But it's also manners, even if it is traditional. Let there be order! Jackman.